I Don't Bet the River Enough...

[sthief09]

I still can't justify betting here. Should I have?


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 7 BB, between SB, Hero and MP1.</font>

[Monty Cantsin]

Why is this a tough river bet? Maybe I'm missing something, but this looks like a good candidate for "easy river bet" status. What gives?

/mc

[pudley4]

You didn't get raised/checkraised on the turn, so they don't have the 7. Gotta bet the river so JT, 89, and 55 can call.

[BottlesOf]

Bet the river.

YES! Just accomplished one of my life goals...

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sthief09]

I'll get check-raised or raised more often than I get called by a worse hand. who's calling an A77r flop with unpaired cards? all I beat is a pocket pair.

[spamuell]

WTF?! In what way can you not justify betting this river? It's not even like the river was a scare card. Any T, 8 (missed straight draw which paired the river) or PP will call your river bet. You may well get 2:1. Bet.

[sthief09]

I get slowplayed to the river all the time... why would JT call the flop, why would 98 call the flop? all I beat is a pocket pair.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll get check-raised or raised more often than I get called by a worse hand. who's calling an A77r flop with unpaired cards? all I beat is a pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
If your opponents are that tricky, bet and fold to a raise.

You beat JT, KT, QT, KQ (who isn't calling), chop with most aces (I can't see AJ/Q/K here), beat 8h9h (or other combos of 89), and you beat a ton of pocket pairs here.

Bet the river.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I get slowplayed to the river all the time... why would JT call the flop, why would 98 call the flop? all I beat is a pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're pretending that your opponents think.

I don't know why JT would call the flop, but they will. Same goes for 89. Same goes for 33. Or 22. Or KT.

Opponents with more money than poker sense are a dime a dozen. Bet the river.

Rob

[Befolder]

I don't blame you for not betting that on the river. Even though it seems like a seven is not out, your Ace kicker sucks and that's probably why you didn't bet.

Not the easiest thing to bet for value. I mean if he didn't have an ace, what the hell did he stay in the hand for? He didn't have a flush or straight draw so you'd think he at least had a seven or ace.

Staying in with two high cards is worthless since your ace beats him even if he hits a K, Q, or J. Maybe the guy was dumb enough to stay in with a backdoor flush draw which may have continued on 4th street.

The would be more chasing that I would expect most players to do, so I think your check on the end with a weak kicker is correct because you were more apt to save yourself a bet there to A6 and above.

Befolder

Just realized A6 to A9 would be a chop.

[sfer]

OMG, WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THIS FORUM!

Who are you and what did you do with Josh!

Bet the river.

[spamuell]

The thought of many a player:

I'm holding 89. Pretty good hand, connectors, I can make a ton if I hit a straight. I'll limp alright. OMG, A77, that is like the perfect flop for me. Everyone knows the hardest thing about making a straight is the inside draw bit and I already have 3 to a straight, there are so many ways I could make a straight by the river, I'll call a bet. Wow, I turned an open ended straight draw. Sure, I'll call a bet. Wow, I rivered a pair of 8s, good hand. It could easily be the best on this board if someone doesn't have an ace.

Or JT, same line of thoughts (on the flop, wow I can make the 789TJ straight and the TJQKA straight).

A bunch of other straight draw hands which paired will probably also call here. It's definitely better to bet and fold to a check-raise here than it is to check.

[Victor]

How tricky are your opponents? It would really suck to face a river raise here. Because of that I dont mind checking here. Still, if your opps are straightforward this is an easy bet and fold to a raise situation.

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
I get slowplayed to the river all the time

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I find this quite rare.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
I mean if he didn't have an ace, what the hell did he stay in the hand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? I was playing live 5/10 game, raised in MP with AA. Got like 4 callers, flop A 10 5 rainbow. I bet, 3 callers. Turn 3. I bet, 1 caller. River 4. I bet, get raised, I re raise, he caps. He has 67o. Uh, ? ok? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Point being, just bet, cause people will show you call kinds of trash at the SD

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]

Really? I find this quite rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Between the one or two aware opponents and the fish that like to slow play med-strong hands, it happens to me quite a bit. Also, some of the fishy online small stakes players are aware enough to fold their crap on the river.

[sthief09]

I still hate betting but the fact that EVERYONE favors it means I'm wrong.

Results:
SB had 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
MP1 had 66

[MaxPower]

One thing I have realized is that if you make many thin value bets in a session, people will start to check-raise you because they become convinced that you will bet.

If I had made a bunch of these value bets in the session, I would be less likely to bet here.

It is quite possible that people slowplay more against you than against some other posters because you are extremely aggressive.

[sthief09]

that's really interesting

[BottlesOf]

Definintely a good point. This is something I'm usually considering while playing. It also helps me to decide wheter I should steal with certain hands, based on how many pots I've taken w/o show downs, how many steal attempts I've made etc.

People talk about fixed stealing standards, but this is really an oversimplification. Theoretically optimal stealing standards are constantly adjusting (not to a a high degree) with every hand you play.

[eh923]

That's a great observation. I've actually noticed the same thing recently (although I couldn't find an explanation until now). I'm one of many of players trying to clear an impossible bonus at a not-to-be-named crappy site. Many of them have seen a lot of me betting the river like a maniac. And they've jammed it right in my @$$.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
YES! Just accomplished one of my life goals...


[/ QUOTE ]
What goal? to tell sthief to bet?

[Surfbullet]

my guess would be to make a strategy post whose only line is:
"Bet the river."

He spoiled it though by congratulating himself on it /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Surf

[Alobar]

I bet the river (and ive seen the results). If it was at a table full of thinking players then I like the check. But the fact that its party and the river was a total non scary card, I bet because you will get called by all kinds of stupid crap. If you are worried about a slowplayed 7 you can fold to a raise. but most of the time I think you will be called by small pocket pairs or someone who missed their draw but paired the 8 or T.