Folding in a huge pot

[MicroBob]

Comments on all streets appreciated:


Online 3/6, 9 players
Hero is MP1 with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif


UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO re-raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, Hero caps, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop
(5 players, 20.3SB)

5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, everyone calls


Turn -
5 players, 12.6BB

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, CO calls, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero re-raises, MP2 caps, CO calls, UTG calls, Hero calls


River -
4 players, 28.6BB

T /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, UTG folds, Hero folds

[pistol78]

Id Probably Play it the same way, I Think our main concern is the River. 29BB is a pretty Large pot, But can it justify calling down with just A high? Probably not unless you suspect MP2 was pumping some weird draw he picked up on the turn. Tough spot, But I would probably look him up.

[MicroBob]

Believe me, I thought about looking him up....but when he bet he did so with 3 players that had to act after capping the turn. Could he really have completely missed...

In this situation, (the turn action and all the players that had to act after he betted) I really think I have less than a 3% chance of actually winning this thing.

He HAD to think someone was going to call or CR him here.


He was kind of goofy in the chat-box after the hand :
"Cap the turn and you don't call the river?"

this quote alone leads me to believe he had something better than A-high.

[pistol78]

I agree, But my reasoning for looking him up:

1) He could have missed
2) If #1 is true we win a Huge POT.
3) If #1 is false then at least we can see what he is cold calling raises with or how he is playing his hands post flop. Good Information for 1 more bet.

I still believe this is a tough spot that we are not winning but my curiosity and the size of the pot would make me toss in one more bet.

On the other hand curiousity did kill the cat.

[MicroBob]

Yeah, interesting points.

I almost always call down with my garbage in huge pots 'just in case'. In fact, I possibly still donate on the river too much ....but I think this is a natural feeling when appropriately calling-down on the river after missing your draw when the pot is big.


This was one of those rare circumstances where I just said 'theres looking him up. and then there's just giving him more money.'

Again...I ALMOST ALWAYS call down in a pot this big, but here I just felt that a fold was warranted (although I'm still not entirely sure).

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
I possibly still donate on the river too much

[/ QUOTE ]

Probobly not. The pots are usually so big that calling 1 bet usually only costs a fraction of the pot and you don't have to be right very often to make this a good call in the long run.

[daveymck]

I dont understand the turn 3 bet, you are drawing and closing the action why put in extra bb's at that point?

[spamuell]

I don't think you can 3-bet the turn for value unless you have one more caller.

Rest of the hand looks fine to me, MP2 looksl ike at least two pair if not a set or a straight. If you think he would play AKd this way I call, but against most players I don't think this and I'm not calling on the off chance that I might win half the pot.

Also, if I thought he might have AJd here then I definitely call, depends on the opponent but against the majority I'm folding.

[MicroBob]

I thought I was raising for value here with my St8-flush draw.

12 legit outs (12:46 = 1:3.8) was not enough here (9 hearts and 3 non-heart J's) to get value out of only 3 remaining opponents.

.....and my A and K outs aren't going to be worth much (if anything) most likely. 6 A's and K's are probably only worth 1-1.5 outs considering the heavy betting.
If they were worth 3 outs (hypothetically, I don't REALLY think they were) then I would be getting 15:46 which would have made my re-raise almost even EV with 3 opponents I guess, right??

Closing the betting here would have been best.

Okay, so that's 2 rounds of betting that I screwed up here! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I was raising for value here with my St8-flush draw.

12 legit outs (12:46 = 1:3.8) was not enough here (9 hearts and 3 non-heart J's) to get value out of only 3 remaining opponents.

.....and my A and K outs aren't going to be worth much (if anything) most likely. 6 A's and K's are probably only worth 1-1.5 outs considering the heavy betting.
If they were worth 3 outs (hypothetically, I don't REALLY think they were) then I would be getting 15:46 which would have made my re-raise almost even EV with 3 opponents I guess, right??

Closing the betting here would have been best.

Okay, so that's 2 rounds of betting that I screwed up here! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is my weak tightness coming through here but in this situation (generally not just this hand) I would not be looking to three bet the turn here unless I was making people behind cold call 2 (or 3) bets to clear up my outs.

As I say it may be a weak tight mentality thing or not being aware of value betting fully but here I am drawing and want to see the river card for less bets possible.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
As I say it may be a weak tight mentality thing or not being aware of value betting fully but here I am drawing and want to see the river card for less bets possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not weak-tight, just flawed. If you hit your hand at a frequency of x:1 (and you will definitely win the whole pot when you hit) and you are getting y:1 on your money, if y>x then the more money that goes in, the more money you make.

Incidentally, have you been to gutshot recently? I've been a couple of times but not in the last few weeks.

[daveymck]

I havent been for a few weeks I can only go Mon-Thurs and to be honest dont really like playing pot limit, however the tuesday night is looking as if it will go to No Limit so I may go back. I thought about going on a Wed for the £30 rebuy but suspect I would play too scared in the rebuy period.

[Trix]

Not sure your turnbet was good.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
however the tuesday night is looking as if it will go to No Limit so I may go back

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I'd prefer NL and I have a few friends who desperately want to play a NL game who go on Tuesdays and always end up playing PL. PL is incredibly soft though, even thought I approach it from a real limit perspective and just bet the pot almost every time I have TP or another vulnerable hand and just get called by middle pair or a ridiculous draw. NL would be a nice change, it would be great to play some live limit hold'em though.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
12 legit outs (12:46 = 1:3.8) was not enough here (9 hearts and 3 non-heart J's) to get value out of only 3 remaining opponents.



[/ QUOTE ]
hm, I am no expert, but I would say you have 12 outs and 34 non-outs, that translates to 1:3.166.
Am I wrong here?

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
hm, I am no expert, but I would say you have 12 outs and 34 non-outs, that translates to 1:3.166.
Am I wrong here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. Although, consider that the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is not always an out. Your maths is is right though.

[daveymck]

I think there is a £5 NL on a Saturday afternoon, but the £10 NL on a friday is decent as well.

I have tried to get limit tables going in there but noone signs up, have asked if they would spread .50/1 to try and build up interest but falls on deaf ears.

Management are pretty much old school used to running pot limit so it seems hard to break that down, had hopes for the Western as they suggested they would spread limit but sounds as though its not getting many players and is dodgy as illegal so havent been there.