Why $20-40 is "better" than $15-30 and $30-60

This is a tangent from a thread below.


Driftaway read some posts and conjectured that "most solid players who depend on poker for a living find the $20-$40 tables most profitable."


If this conjecture is true, the reason might be the small blind. If it is "correct" to fold the small blind (for two more chips) at $20-40 with many hands that most players would play, then every time one of those folds is made, the folder earns theoretical money. This routine, frequent advantage is elliminated at $30-60 and $15-30, where the small blind pays one chip to see the flop, essentially forcing the pros and recreationals to make the same play with the same cards, over and over, thereby narrowing the spectrum of expected results.


In short, the 2-and-3 chip blind structure works as an equalizer (compared to the 2-and-4 chip structure), something like the lady's tee at golf.


Tommy

From what I've gathered from Mason's posts, he seems to think otherwise. He has never fully explained why he thinks a pro can make the same in $15-30 and in $20-40, but he hints that the 2/3's small blind structure encourages more multiway action. I don't know if I agree with this theory or not as I don't have any $15-30 games to play in the Chicago area.

I think Tommy is right sometimes, and in tight games at tough times of day.


But in the great games, the ones that make poker a tolerable living, more players in the pot is always a plus.


I wish there were 10 big blinds.


LeRoy

I have written before that given the exact same lineup an expert player should do at least as well at the $15-$30 game as the $20-$40. This has to do with the little blind being too large causing the non-expert player to call too many raises from that spot. This effect tends to carry over to other places in the game and you get more calls by hands that should be folding (and would fold at the $20-$40 structure).


However, this characteristic has the effect of burning out the game. That is the marginal players lose their money too fast and essentially become poor players. Thus in the long run the $20-$40 structure (in my opinion) is actually better for the expert than the $15-$30 as long as the population of regular players is fairly static. Thus I have recommended to card rooms (who virtually never listen to me) not to spread the $15-$30 structure but to stick to the standard $10-$20 (or $20-$40) structure.

Tommy,


I agree completely in unraised pots. But in raised pots the weaker players frequently make a call out of the small blind where they shouldn't and it is a big leak.


In theory the 15/30 structure should be more aggressive since the blinds are bigger and "more worth attacking". But in practice here in Los Angeles the opposite is true where both games are played side by side.


Regards,


Rick

:set JohnCleeseMode on


You quantitative types make me *sick*. All this talk about 2/3 chip blinds and 2/4 chip blinds. Just because you have your bleeding calculators with you and can compute the exact error of calling a raise when you have K6s in a $15-30...


:set JohnCleeseMode off


It's important to note that Mason and I play in such wildly different environments that our experiences are very akin to the blind men and the elephant problem. With that caveat...


Here in Northern California, the 20-40's attract the worse players for one simple reason: the pots are physically bigger. 33% bigger for the same number of bets. Mountains of chips! They *love* those big pots. The 15-30 at Bay 101 has a tougher line-up than the 20-40 at Garden City. And the real donators in the GC 20-40 are there just because once in a while they get to drag down a pot with two racks of nickels in it. It takes three scoops by the dealer to get the whole pot over to them. And they'll donate four racks of nickels to the table to collect one of those puppies. As Jim Geary says, "It's a thing of beauty."


From my minimal experience with Vegas poker, I suspect that the reasons for the difference in game quality are completely different. But I'm pretty sure about what I've seen here.


Regards, Lee

"I think I could get rich in a $25-$50 game played with nickels."

Mason,


I should have read you first regarding the small blind in raised pots in a 15/30 game since I said essentially the same thing.


My guess is that you are correct regarding the long term viability of 20/40 versus 15/30. Yet we see some interesting phenomena at Hollywood Park and the Commerce, where both games are spread side by side (my understand is that this is not the case in Las Vegas - they are spread in different rooms).


In these two clubs the 20/40 is more commonly spread (especially at the Commerce) and seems to be gaining popularity relative to the 15/30. This would support your theory. Yet the 15/30 is the less aggressive game where it should be more aggressive according to the structure. I believe this is because the 15/30 is usually the smallest top section game which tends to get quite a few players who can barely afford to play it. OTOH, the 20/40 is the biggest yellow ($5) chip game, and in the case of Hollywood Park the next jump is to 40/80. So aggressive players who would like to play a little higher (but not 40/80) congregate at that level.


Regards,


Rick

Rick,


"I agree completely in unraised pots."


Cool. A better subject box would have started with "One way that $20-40 is ..."


"But in raised pots the weaker players frequently make a call out of the small blind where they shouldn't and it is a big leak."


This would only be relevant if the same players would fold to a raise at $20-40 with the same cards that they would call a raise with at $15-30, right? It costs four chips to call in both games. Granted, the odds on their four chips are different in the two games, but with four chips being four chips, and calling from the small blind being calling from the small blind, do you really think the structure effects the number of hands that call raises from the SB? I don't. Not unless some combination of all the other things that you and Mason brought up are influencing things.


"In theory the 15/30 structure should be more aggressive since the blinds are bigger and "more worth attacking"."


And also more worth defending. A wash perhaps?


This is a hazy topic because each locale has its own ways and influences. If we could establish an all-things-being-equal platform, say, with a static player pool or not, with aggressive players or not, with both games in the same room or not --- it wouldn't matter which option we picked in each category --- if we establish all else as equal, I think that now the significance of the lady's tee effect of the one-chip-to-call-the-SB shines clearly.


Tommy

Tommy,


You caught me scratching my head on your post but you got there before I could catch you /images/smile.gif .


Gotta Go,


Rick

In Mississippi, where they haven't yet discovered $10 chips, hallelujah, 20-40 is basically 4-8 played with red ($5) chips.

I suppose one can construct a "theoretical" argument about how $20-$40 is a "better" structure than $15-$30. But from a practical standpoint, here in Vegas $15-$30 does much better. At the Bellagio they get 3 and sometimes 4 tables of $15-$30 every day. The $20-$40 game at the Mirage is usually a single table and it frequently breaks up during the day.


Personally, I prefer a $20-$40 structure over a $15-$30 structure (although the $15-$30 structure would be better in my opinion if the small blind were $5 instead of $10). But the $15-$30 game really rocks at the Bellagio and is very profitable for a good player-much more so than the $20-$40 at the Mirage which is frequently a "hit or miss" situation.


The only way the $15-$30 game would "burn out" is if they closed either the Bellagio poker room or the Mirage poker room and went back to a $10-$20, $20-$40, and $40-$80 structure in the remaining card room.

Let's say you are in a pot and are getting ready to bet 25. You have a big stack and can bet 25 ones, or five nickles, or one quarter. You want action. Do you feel that throwing out the 25 ones will make the pot look bigger and induce calls?

The $15-30 is good at the Bellagio because peole would rather play at the Bellagio. If they switched the limits at the Mirage and Bellagio, I bet the Bellagio would have 3-4 $20-40 hold 'em games going.

I think throwing out 25 one's will piss off everybody at the table, particularly the dealer. My point is that in games that have a single standard chip size [1], the more chips it takes to put out a single bet, the bigger (physically) the pots get. There is a large group of people (mostly pretty bad poker players) who dig those chip mountains.


If a game structure attracts bad players, I'm all for it.


Regards, Lee


[1] The improvement in speed and smoothness of a game with a single standard chip denomination over a mixed chip game (e.g. a Vegas 6-12 played with $5's and $1's) is nothing short of stunning.