How to Play When the Turn Card Pairs the board

I leant my buddy my HPFAP and I have a general question of how to play when the turn card pairs the board. This happened a couple of times when I was playing in a 3-6 game over the weekend.


The Flop came with two minor cards and one face card, 3, 7, J. There was one bet from early position, with 5 callers. On the Turn another 7 appears on the board for 3, 7, J, 7, rainbow. Play is checked all the way around to one loose player in middle position who bets. Everyone else folds. I figured the loose player had another 7 as his bet represented trips. Having played a little with him before, he probably would have raised with any pocket pair, so I didn't think he had a fh. I had pocket 10's and folded.


A dozen or so hands later, the same situation came up. I was in the BB with Q,8 -- not a great hand, but there was no raise, so I found myself staring at the board of 2, Q, 5 giving me top pair with a horrible kicker. I bet and get 5 other callers, no raisers. The turn card comes and it's a 5. I check and the same loose player bets. Play is folded around to me and I muck figuring this guy has trips or maybe two pair, a full-house possible, but doubtful. Play is folded around to him and he takes down the pot. Then he says, "I had a good hand, but I was worried when the second 5 hit the board, but nobody bet so I knew I was alright. I had the kicker." I took this to mean he had AQ which had me beat anyway.


I hoped that this situation would come up again as he was bluffing trips/full-house both times, but it didn't. I believe the propper play against him would have been to check, he would bet representing trips or the fh, and then I could raise him. If he 3-bet, I would probably know where I stood as he would probably be more likely to have trips/fh. A call would indicate a pair or a flush/straight draw depending on the board.


What do you think of this play? I don't think he's a good enough player to know I'm calling his bluff, so I don't think he would re-raise without having a decent hand on the Turn: he plays bad cards from early position, raises fromt EP with small pairs, and comments on his hands after laying his cards down.


Any comments on playing against someone like this?

If I flop top pair out of position with a ragged board and bet and no one raises and then one of the two undercards pairs on the turn, I prefer betting out rather than checking and guessing. My goal on the turn and river combo is to lose one bet with the worst hand and win two bets with the best hand. Losing no bets with the worst hand, while possible sometimes, always means checking and guessing, whereas betting the turn has the additional bonus of the opponent folding with HIS top pair shakey kicker, fearing the same paired card, or better kicker, that I do.


Another reason to bet is that with scattered flops, gut shots and overcards typically take one off on the flop and then fold on the turn. They can't fold if I don't bet.


The more frequent (and important IMO) situation is when I'm last to act as preflop raiser and two opponents check and I bet top pair and one or both of them call. Then the board pairs an undercard. With a scattered board, I think the best play here is often to check behind on the turn because now they'll check-call the river with any pair, pocket or otherwise, or if they bet, it's usually a bluff or it means they did hit the trips on the turn. Then I call their river bet and see which it is. A subtle bonus to this line is that when they did hit the trips on the turn planning to check-raise, they wonder how the heck I could have enough to call the river, but not fall for the check-raise on the turn. I think this makes them think I had a special read on them, which might unnerve them a little, when actually my line of play was preset.


Tommy

It would seem that your early position play of betting the turn if a low card pairs still leaves you guessing if the turn card gives someone a draw to semi bluff raise at. Do you most times fold here?

I also tend to play the way Tommy does. If the board pairs on the turn, no one could have picked up a straight draw with which to semi-bluff. They could only have picked up a flush draw. Not many players would have called with only a 3-flush on the flop and will then raise when they pick up a flush draw on the turn when a player has bet the flop and then bets the turn again when the board has paired. They certainly have to fear trips (or worse) especially if I was one of the blinds. So a raise in this situation on the turn usually means I'm beat. The advantages Tommy mentions, in my mind, far outweigh the fear of a possible semi-bluff raise, especially in a multi-way pot where the possible semi-bluffer still has to fear that someone behind him has made trips.

Thank you all for discussing this problem. As is his wont, Tommy has expressed himself eloquently, so I'll hang my comments/questions on his post...


He says that in early position, he prefers to bet into the paired board (and presumably fold if he gets raised). But suppose I'm his opponent and I have position on him. I'm in there with A9s, and the flop comes A-7-2. I suspect that Tommy has me kicked, but I've got position. So when he bets the flop, I call with *nine* outs - three 9's, and three each 7's and 2's. If any of those cards hits, I raise. If it's a 7 or a 2, I win the pot right there. If I turn top two, I probably collect two on the turn and one on the river.


I'm not saying that I don't like Tommy's approach. I tend to bet out too, but I also tend to pay off some percentage of the time when I get raised (based on the aggressiveness of the raiser, did a two-flush just turn, the chances that he's holding a 7, phase of the moon - the usual suspects). I would love to close that leak, but I want to know exactly how to see my way through it.


I will say that I've started occasionally three-betting in that situation. If I get four-bet, I usually let it go right then. If they call, I'll check the river (modulo improving :-). If they're willing to bet the river after I've showed that kind of strength, I can probably fold with a clear conscience. But more often the river gets checked down - often with me winning.


I'm not sure I agree with Tommy that the situation where you have position is more important, simply because it's such an easier problem with position. Sometimes I'll bet (against calling stations who won't check-raise their turned trips), and sometimes I'll check (bluff-inducing, weak calls on the river, all the reasons that have been pointed out a thousand times).


But note that betting out in early position when the board pairs on the turn tends to make the pot bigger than checking late. So you're creating a bigger pot and magnifying the size of mistakes that you make (and it's much easier to make mistakes out of position). So I'd actually rather discuss the early position scenario.


But it's a wonderful thread, either way. Thanks.


Regards, Lee

"I'm in there with A9s, and the flop comes A-7-2. I suspect that Tommy has me kicked, but I've got position. So when he bets the flop, I call with *nine* outs - three 9's, and three each 7's and 2's. If any of those cards hits, I raise. If it's a 7 or a 2, I win the pot right there."


Lee,


You changed everything by making the top pair an ace instead of a jack, and by making the board with no gutshots. No overcard threats, no draw threats, it's a whole nuther situation now.


"If I turn top two, I probably collect two on the turn and one on the river."


As long as we're in fantasy land, maybe I'll collect five on the turn and one on the river with my set! :-)


Tommy

Fair enough. It's J-7-2, you've got AJs and I've got JTs. I'm not saying I don't like your play - I'm just playing "advocati diabolo" here.


Regards, Lee

Tommy,


Thanks for the advice -- it makes a lot of sense. I enjoyed your insights last week at LC

"I'm just playing "advocati diabolo" here."


Sounds like guacamole with too much garlic.


(As if that's possible.)

A dozen or so hands later, the same situation came up. I was in the BB with Q,8 -- not a great hand, but there was no raise, so I found myself staring at the board of 2, Q, 5 giving me top pair with a horrible kicker. I bet and get 5 other callers, no raisers.


I wouldn't bet out with Q-8 up front on this flop. Check and see what develops. If it gets bet late, check raise and limit the field. If it gets bet and raised and comes back to me I would probably muck. If it gets bet on my immediate left and 4 people call, I would sometimes call, sometimes raise, and sometimes fold ... it just depends on my read of the bettor and the callers.


But given the way you played the flop, I would mostly fold and occasionaly check raise the turn if I thought there was a chance the bettor had a Q that he could lay down.

"On the Turn another 7 appears on the board for 3, 7, J, 7, rainbow. Play is checked all the way around to one loose player in middle position who bets. Everyone else folds. I figured the loose player had another 7 as his bet represented trips.


...


I was in the BB with Q,8 -- not a great hand, but there was no raise, so I found myself staring at the board of 2, Q, 5 giving me top pair with a horrible kicker. I bet and get 5 other callers, no raisers. The turn card comes and it's a 5. I check and the same loose player bets. Play is folded around to me and I muck figuring this guy has trips or maybe two pair, a full-house possible, but doubtful.


...


I hoped that this situation would come up again as he was bluffing trips/full-house both times"


These passages suggest a weakness in your game. You expect a sniper behind every tree (or monster under the bed, if you will).

In the two hands, the bet from the other player would tend to suggest top pair or better (usually with a decent kicker) rather than a near lock. It so happens that in each case your fold was a good one since you couldn't beat most top pair holdings.


Perhaps I missed it in your post, but unless you really know that other player, his bets weren't bluffs in any sense of the word. He was betting what he believed to be the best hand at the table. Perhaps he was looking for someone to tell him otherwise.


When the board pairs mid-to-low, do not be afraid. If you had a good hand, you probably still do. A board of 6,Q,K,Q is a little different, but pairing a 7 or 5 is rarely harmful.


Perhaps next time you should check-raise the turn. That does represent trips-or-better, in my opinion. If the guy can lay down a moderate hand which might beat yours, it's worth a shot.


Eric