When should I quit?

[littledave]

This is my first post of a hand on 2+2. I see others being told to post hands and get advice and/or criticism. Here's a loser that bothered me.

I'm pretty much well through my first readings of Matthew Hilger and Lee Jones books. Getting some hands in to reinforce some of what I've read, got a lot more to learn.

I got the nut flush on the flop here. Obviously didn't score. At what point do I figure that my odds are that I shouldn't throw any more money away? Should I ever go for a flush in a case like this?

PokerStars Micro Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (10 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12 BB, between BB and UTG.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG (12 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB has 8d 5h (two pair, eights and fives).
UTG has 8c 8s (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: UTG wins 12 BB. </font>

[Entity]

Your play seems to be weak here -- here's my line:

Raise preflop. Raise the flop. Call the turn. Fold the river.

You are missing way to much by not raising this preflop.

I frequently raise this flop with two overcards + a flush draw. Often (but not always) you'll get a free card on the turn. Besides, with 5 players seeing the turn, you've got major equity here; you will win this far more often than 20% of the time, so for every bet you put in, you get more than one out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You are getting odds to call the turn here, so don't even think about folding.

You didn't get there, no big deal.

Rob

[cab4656]

Welcome to the forum.

You should raise this preflop. This is for a number of reasons. First, it's likely you have the best hand. Exploit this by making UTG and MP2 pay more for calling. Second, you have a chance at "buying the button" and being able to act last on future betting rounds, giving you a position advantage. Third, you don't need the blinds getting in free with whatever junk they have. Make them make a mistake by calling.

Also, raise the flop. You have a very strong draw - the draw to the nut flush and two overcards (not to mention a backdoor straight draw). This raise is for value, as your flush will come in a bit more often than 2:1, and you already have two others in the pot and you can usually expect more to come along. Theoretically, you gain on every bet put in on this flop if it's played three ways or more. Again, you can also benefit by "buying the button" here which might allow you to take a free card on the turn if you end up wanting one.

Turn and river look fine, but they would likely be different if you played pre-flop and the flop diffently (of course).

[cold_cash]

Pre-flop limp is bad, bad, and bad.

You have a monster draw. Raise the flop.

If nothing else you can probably get a free card on the turn if you'd like it, plus it might clean up some of your non-flush outs.

[Jaran]

Hey littledave,
Welcome to the forum. In your hand, you need to raise this pf. The hand plays out much differently after that. Given the way you played it, after the flop, you are pretty much committed to seeing the river.

-Jaran

[mmbt0ne]

I'll go ahead and follow everyone else by saying raise the flop. I'm pretty new at this too, so I know how crazy this advice sounds at first. But, especially being in last position, this situation is tailor-made for a raise.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

raise preflop, put in as many bets as you can on the flop, call the turn, fold the river unimproved.

[InchoateHand]

Raise the flop. Be scared when its three bet, and slow down on the turn. Obviously turbo-muck when you flush doesn't come. Play this more aggressively--ignore what the results were.

[InchoateHand]

Raise this flop in any position--without a crystal ball, you should probably believe your overcard outs are good. You have a killer draw. If you knock out other aces/jacks, you only improve your chances to win, will feeding what can become a monster pot.

[littledave]

Wow these are some incredible posts you guys - the insight of this group is amazing. I really want to thank you all. I've learned quite a few things from all of these posts. Your answers brings home what I've read here at 2+2 and also in parts of the books.

Now on to study some of the problem hands posted by others here, back to the books, and a lot more hands.

Thanks again!
Dave

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Your play seems to be weak here -- here's my line:

Raise preflop. Raise the flop. Call the turn. Fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto. you should be elated to see this flop, not scared.

[Fiddler]

I haven't look at the results but why should he be scared if the flop is three bet? He should welcome it and cap it. Also a flop raise might fold the players that haven't called yet which increases the chance that an A or J might win the pot even if the flush doesn't come in.

What am I missing?

[littledave]

Not missing anything - I"m the one that posted the hand. I think the other was saying to me "Yeah I know you're conservative at this early stage, you're probably scared to throw so many raises at this hand, especially now knowing that it didn't improve, but go ahead and do it if it happens again because [all these reasons above]."

It all makes perfect sense to me now, that I should jump on this hand right from the start knowing that I had the nut flush draw on the flop and overcards too. The more I raise the more chance I have to push out those that are uncertain, and that increases the chances that - even if I don't improve to the flush - I might hit on an A or a J or even steal the pot with high card.

Thanks again guys, your posts have taught me some things right in my first hand post!

Dave

[Entity]

Dave,

Are you familiar with a concept called pot equity? I'd highly recommend reading a book advertised here called SSHE (Small Stakes Hold 'em: Winning Big With Expert Play). It will really help cement your play in these situations. On flops like these, you want as much money as possible going into the pot.

Good luck. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[crockett]

I would like to add that "back to the books is correct" everyone for the most apart agrees that the line is raise, raise, call, fold.

That line is without a doubt in WLLH. In fact I'd be shocked if there exists a book that doesn't tell you to raise AJs from any position (assumming no raise before you).

I'm not familiar with the other book you mention but you need to do two things immediately. Read this forum daily and read and reread WLLH. I don't think you need to run out and buy SSH if you don't know to raise AJs but you should definately make it your next purchase in the near future.