PDA

View Full Version : building a bankroll


11-12-2001, 11:18 AM
I have lived in LV for almost 3 years now. I make good money at my job as does my wife. I have been playing poker now for 2 of these three years. Originally, I started with poker because my money lasted longer than with other games. I now over the last 8 months have discovered a passion for playing. I have almost every book and some software. My questions are these:

1) How can you ever build a bankroll plying some of these crazy low limit games into one that would enable me to play higher(10-20 or above)?

2) There are times when my discipline and skill level come to a level where I can actually "feel" myself playing at a higher level than the rest of the table. I know my bluff at the river will work. I am reading hands so well that the players may as well turn their cards over. How can I cultivate this "groove" to play like this all the time?

3) Is the skill difference really that much higher at the 10-20 to 30-60 level than say 6-12?

4) Is there even more avenues for learning than what I'm exposed to (books, WSOP videos, and software)? Any suggestions?


I'm not necesarilly looking to quit my good job but only to augment that income doing something I truly love. Any suggestions on how to build this bankroll would be welcome.

11-12-2001, 03:51 PM
You may have the books but do you actually study them? Judging by your first question I wuld tend to doubt it. "HEFAP21st century edition" and "Getting the Best of It" both have a great section devoted to these types of games.

It seems contradictory that you play in crazy games, yet you "know" when a bluff will work and you can read these players so accurately. How can you know what a crazy, wild, irrational, or just plain unskilled player can be holding or know when they'll fold???

In general the higher you go the tougher the competition will be but remember that this is always dependant on the current lineup at any given time. I have played in 6-12 games that were significantly worse then some of the 20-40 games I have played in and vice versa.

Finally there are two basic ways to build a bankroll- work or take shots. Taking shots only works if you get lucky enough not to hit a losing streak early. This is the whole point of building a bankroll- you build it so you have enough money to continue to play without going broke. So the two reliable ways to build a bankroll are either working and saving or selling stuff.

11-12-2001, 11:24 PM
I agree with you, Goat but there is another way to increase one's bankroll. After losing about 50% of my equity in the markets a year or so ago, I realised I was stock market super fish and any money I had made there in previous years had been done by pure luck. I cashed in what was left and used it as my bankroll. Which grew at a rate of 11% last year. Not very good compared to some here, I know, but I can't help but feel I have more control of my cash at the poker table than I did when I "invested" it in companies whose businesses I didn't really understand.


I'm not saying this is the proper solution for everybody trying to build a bankroll, but I'm an awful lot more comfortable being directly responsible for my savings than relying on something I have little knowledge in.

11-13-2001, 01:40 AM
"1) How can you ever build a bankroll playing some of these crazy low limit games into one that would enable me to play higher(10-20 or above)?"


The $6-12 route at best means building up to a grand or two, moving up, going bust, starting over, until maybe not going bust, at least for a while. A better way I think is to just borrow 5K to 10K or so and dive in. Prefer banks over people. The cost of borrowing would ideally be offset in poker earn by providing the mental benefit of cushion.


"2) There are times when my discipline and skill level come to a level where I can actually "feel" myself playing at a higher level than the rest of the table. ... How can I cultivate this "groove" to play like this all the time?"


Practice. Especially when stuck.


"3) Is the skill difference really that much higher at the 10-20 to 30-60 level than say 6-12?"


There's a big difference, but calling it skill-levels skirts the issue. It's a different environment altogether, where varied frequencies of this cause varied frequencies of that. Takes time to get used to, whatever skill levels you face.


"4) Is there even more avenues for learning than what I'm exposed to (books, WSOP videos, and software)? Any suggestions?"


I think the best and fastest avenue is to figure out who the winners are in your game and go to school on them. One reason is that what works in one locale might not work in another, but each place has players who do what works at that place.


Tommy

11-13-2001, 05:17 AM
"The $6-12 route at best means building up to a grand or two, moving up, going bust, starting over, until maybe not going bust, at least for a while. A better way I think is to just borrow 5K to 10K or so and dive in. Prefer banks over people. The cost of borrowing would ideally be offset in poker earn by providing the mental benefit of cushion."


Both Tommy and Goat said something similar to this (at least in that they discouraged grinding your way up). Its probably best to listen to these guys. They have a lot of experience. But as somebody roughly in your shoes +3 years (good income, play for the challenge of it and a few dollars more) I think grinding your way up is very possible and fun. Those loose wild low limit games can be very profitable if you learn how to take advantage of them (just the implication in your post that you think it will be hard to build a 10-20 BR in those games means you have some basic things to learn). Along the way you won't have any choice but to learn how to manage yourself at the table and learn multiple games. If you get to the point of being comfortable in the local 20-40 in 1, 2, 3, or 4 years shouldn't really matter to you. You should be focused on getting the best poker knowledge and experience base you can achieve. Then the BR and the higher limit games will come.

11-13-2001, 12:12 PM
Like others have said, 6/12 and below can be hard to beat due to rake considerations. On the other hand 10/20 and above can be hard to beat because of the level of play.


Since you seem to have a grasp of the fundamentals, it might be time to get "introspective". Do you keep a session diary? I don't mean a log of your sessions. Rather I mean a written diary of hands which you played which seemed interesting and or challenging. Doing this kind of excercise can be time consuming, and will sometimes feel pointless, but over time you will go back and review your play of hands, and hopefully see yourself progress. You can also take particularly interesting hands and post them here.


At the tables, are you making good table selection decisions? As you take more and more notes on your game, you should get a better and better idea of what games are easier for you to beat. Play in those games, not the ones that frustrate you. If you go to the casino on a Friday night and you can't find a game that looks like a good fit for you, it's ok to not play. Game selection, as I've had to relearn multiple times, is the key to maximizing your profit.


If you are anxious about moving up sooner, you might consider giving yourself a poker "allowance". Keep a separate account for your poker bankroll -- this is somewhat artificial but will help you learn fiscal discipline -- and every month deposit a fixed amount of money. For example, if you deposit $200 per month, after a year and a half you'll have $3600 in deposited funds. If you win $2400 in addition to that you'll have a "legitimate" 10/20 bankroll.


If you are interested in "taking a shot" I'd suggest limiting your shot-taking to special occasions. For example, during high volume tourist weekends. If you are playing a winning game, then playing the 8/16 and 15/30 at the Bellagio during Super Bowl weekend would be a good time to take a shot.


Lastly, I'd suggest playing online, either for free money (on IRC http://irc.poker.net) or in the micro limits online. Of course this can be dangerous as well, the last thing you want to do is become an online poker zombie -- believe me, I know /images/smile.gif


- Andrew

11-13-2001, 03:15 PM
Grinding your way up the limits is underrated (not overrated). Grinding is the only guarantee that you can beat the game consistently at that level. Grinding is also a good measure of your real earning rate which is determined by the number of hours you play. And grinding is the only proof that you can weather everything including loose-wild games, bad cards, bad beats, and protracted losing streaks.


I've seen dozens of players put in 200+ hours of time at low limit tables, proclaim themselves "winning players at that limit", borrow money for a jump to medium level stakes (sometimes 3 or 4 levels higher), suffer a bad run (60+ hours) lose their bankroll, borrowed money, and repeat the process all over again. Some of these players (friends) have repeated this process only to end up with a negative result at the end of the year - after putting in 1000 hours at the tables!


If you are playing 6-12, you should be very close in bankroll to 10-20 maybe only a couple hundred hours or so can give you the cushion. What's 300 hours? 3 months part-time? what's 500 hours? If I wasn't showing much of a profit after that many hours, I'd be seriously concerned about my play.


Good luck,


d,

11-13-2001, 06:07 PM
are you the person that bought cooper mountain about a yr ago?

do u also play at commerce? 15 and 20 games?

11-13-2001, 10:10 PM
are you the person that bought cooper mountain about a yr ago? do u also play at commerce? 15 and 20 games?


Not me friend, but I've probably bought worse dogs than that. And as to the Commerce, that's not me either. Unfortunately at the moment I live in a country that doesn't approve of gambling. I'm forced to hunt out home games, which is fine when they are findable. But it would be nice to play whenever the notion strikes me.

11-14-2001, 03:56 AM
Dear Andrew,

The other players have given some excellent ideas.

Let me tell you what I did to build my bank roll. First there is a learning curve to poker no matter how gifted you are. I feel that "grinding your way up is the best way to advance. Now 6-12 games can be hard to beat some times ,but they are beatable. I happened to open a safety deposit box at my Casino. Other players keep 2 wallets a poker wallet, and a regular wallet. When their poker wallet gets too full they transfer the money to a small home safe of a separate bank account. Now the key to this technique is that your poker money ,is your poker money.Money is the most important tool of your trade. Its used to allow you to develop at your avocation, which may become your vocation.

The problem is that most people, that are starting to play, and are good enough to beat the game, spend their winnings ,rather than build their bank rolls. You can't do that, money to a poker player is simply one of the tools of his trade not keeping enough to play with would be like a concert violinist selling his violin. If you can't make money at 6-12, you aren't ready to move up. If you can, then it should be only a matter of time until you have a large enough bank roll to move up.

The next point is that you should play the best players in your Casino and monitor their playing patterns. The problem is that you can't afford to play at their table. But you can afford to play in the weekly or daily inexpensive tournaments. Even if they don't have a tournament program at your Casino they do at one near to you. If you are playing a solid game you should be near the final table quite a bit of the time.And at the final 2to3 tables you should be playing with some very solid players.

Next when you move up do it in stages. Lets say that you are going to move from 6-12 to 10-20 or 15-30. Figure out what time of day and against which players you will have the best chance to win. For example you might find that from 6pm to 8 pm on Fridays and Saturdays the 15-30 game has more tourist, and since you have been playing the tournaments you should know a couple of the regulars and you know that you can sometimes beat them .Then say to your self, "ok I am going to play for only those 2 hours that I have the biggest advantage at". Then go to your poker safety deposit box. Get out $500 dollars, that you have won at poker, buy a rack and play. When you finish your 2 hours cash out and put you $600 cash out dollars back in your safety deposit box. It won't be to long until you find your self playing and winning at the higher level most of the time. Now if you are going to play at the higher limit you will have loosing sessions. 2 red racks cost $1,000 dollars ,so don't start depleting your winnings, until you can tolerate several loosing sessions.

If I were to list the training program that I use to continue improving my game it would include:

Books. I don't think you really know a good poker book until you have read it 3 times or listened to it 6 times. Since I play multiple games there is always something that I am working on.

Simulators: I have all the simulated games that Wilson has put out. If you don't have the latest Wilson turbo holdem with Sid and Mike as instructors get it. Also get the newest tournament minutes with limit,pot, and no limit. Then set it up somewhere that you can play ,and play it 30 minutes to 1 hour a day. I have known 2 players ranked in the top 15 tournament players in the nation ,by monies won, that keep mentally sharp by playing their Wilson simulators every day.

Study groups and web sights. You may be able to locate 2 or 3 winning players that would like to work with you on their games and this web sight is a superb location to get good information.

Monitor your game and gains.I keep a diary of all the monies I win or loose at each session. And I keep a small hand tape recorder in my car and whenever I played a hand that I feel was less than ideal I dictate it when I return to my car to go home.Or if I notice a tell or something specific about a player I dictate it. Then later as I drive to the Casino I play the tape .If you have a weakness in your game, once you hear yourself describing it over and over again you will be surprised how quickly you quite doing it.

Train your self to keep your mind focused on learning your opponents. I have tried several techniques. In one I keep approx 8 chips in my hand and if a player puts in a pre flop raise I set a chip down with the 5 or 10 pointed in his direction, If some one does a flop check raise I put two chips down next and so on. What this forces me to do is to replay the hand at the show down and see what certain players open with,raise with, check raise with etc.Then when I get in my car I dictate a few minutes of what I have learned about the players. It might go, "Unlike most players Joe will raise early with a flush draw, while Jerry will call all the way to the river with a dry big slick and then do a river semibluf, Tommy hasn't raised with anything but Aces and kings from early positions in 2 years, Sally has learned that I am a good enough player to drop a hand so when ever I am in the hand ,she raises no matter what she has, remember to remind myself to always put in a second raise into Sally to bleed her to the maximum.Once again listen to your tape on the way to the Casino.

Good luck,

Octavian

11-14-2001, 09:32 AM