What's the play

[ctide]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed)

UTG+1 ($146)
UTG+2 ($28)
MP1 ($42.75)
MP2 ($115.83)
MP3 ($56.98)
CO ($100)
Button ($89.15)
SB ($94.84)
Hero ($100)
UTG ($94.14)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $2, UTG+2 calls $2, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to $8</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO (poster) folds, Button calls $8, SB folds, Hero calls $6, UTG+1 calls $6, UTG+2 calls $6.

Flop: ($43) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets $34.75 (All-In)</font>, Button calls $34.75, Hero calls $34.75, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: ($147.25) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Haven't been sitting here long enough to get solid reads on these players. How do you approach the rest of this hand? Do you let go of the hand before you even get here? For the record, the remaining player in the hand has $46.40 left over, and you have him covered by a few bucks.

[Ghazban]

I wouldn't call the preflop raise. You have a drawing hand and you'll be out of position for the entire hand. I don't think calling the flop all-in is at all good, either, as you pretty much need the gutshot straight to hit. I doubt hitting a 6 or 7 would give you a better hand than the all-in player, who probably has an overpair. Even if he is bluffing with big missed cards, the button called so he must have something. In my opinion, this was an easy muck preflop or, barring that, an easy muck on the flop.

[amoeba]

I would have folded preflop.

But at the turn, I would go all in and hope button doesn't have 55.

mp1 is definitely AA or KK.

[tabish]

I would have let go before the flop. Suited connectors can often stand up to multi-way play, but as with any drawing hand you want to play with position.

In that position against a raise, I would have let go most anything except pocket pairs and AK/AQ. What would you have done if UTG+1 or UTG+2 re-raised? Depending on its size, I'd probably fold small pocket pairs to a re-raise... and those are 8:1 to a set. Suited connectors have about those odds to flop a good draw, and when that draw did flop, you were forced to chase it out of position.

Once you've gotten to this turn though, I'd bet all-in. Button might fold, but if he calls you're getting pot odds on your open-ended straight flush draw.

[schwza]

fold pre-flop.

calling the flop is ok i guess, but a little questionable - you're risking facing a check-raise and you're not getting great odds here anyway.

on the turn, pushing is horrible. you can't semi-bluff a dry side pot. you have no folding equity - if the guy folds, you're going to get nothing at all unless you hit your draw (the only exception is if the all-in guy has AK, in which case you add 6 outs if your raise pushed out the other guy's overpair).

i would much prefer trying to get to the river for free. if you hit either draw, assume your money is good and push it to the middle (it's easy b/c the stacks are small on the river). if you miss, you save yourself $45. and if the villain pushes, you can call with 15 outs that are probably good.

[ctide]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call the preflop raise. You have a drawing hand and you'll be out of position for the entire hand. I don't think calling the flop all-in is at all good, either, as you pretty much need the gutshot straight to hit. I doubt hitting a 6 or 7 would give you a better hand than the all-in player, who probably has an overpair. Even if he is bluffing with big missed cards, the button called so he must have something. In my opinion, this was an easy muck preflop or, barring that, an easy muck on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had an open ender, not a gutshot, and while the pot odds were ALMOST there, the implied odds were huge. Throw in the fact that it's possible a 6 or 7 was good (although, extremely unlikely), and the backdoor flush possibility and I feel the odds are correct.

As far as position goes, I felt that getting 6 to 1 and basically being in a situation where I was either putting my whole stack in and getting the showdown, or laying it down on the flop overruled the fact that I would be second to act throughout the hand.

[ctide]

[ QUOTE ]
on the turn, pushing is horrible. you can't semi-bluff a dry side pot. you have no folding equity - if the guy folds, you're going to get nothing at all unless you hit your draw (the only exception is if the all-in guy has AK, in which case you add 6 outs if your raise pushed out the other guy's overpair).

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes sense. I did push because I felt that if I hit my draw, I wasn't going to get any more out of the last remaining player, but you're right, I should have just checked it there.

[ctide]

<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $57.25 (All-In)</font>, Button calls $46.40 (All-In).

River: ($250.90) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $250.90
<font color="green">Main Pot: $147.25, between MP1, Button and Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $92.80, between Button and Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 3: $10.85, returned to Hero.</font>

Hero has 6c 7c (straight, eight high).
MP1 has Ks Ac (one pair, fours).
Button has 3h 3s (two pair, fours and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $250.90.

[ctide]

[ QUOTE ]
Depending on its size, I'd probably fold small pocket pairs to a re-raise... and those are 8:1 to a set. Suited connectors have about those odds to flop a good draw, and when that draw did flop, you were forced to chase it out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you ever want to let a PP go in this situation. Folding a suited connector is one thing, but letting go of a PP is something I would never do here. The implied odds on this hand are absolutely absurd.

[Ghazban]

Sorry, I misread the board. I understand your reasoning in calling the raise preflop but, if that's the case, why did you check the flop? Semibluffing at the flop by betting right into the preflop raiser would've been better than check calling his all-in. Honestly, I think its the button you are more likely to be in trouble against than the preflop raiser (I'm thinking preflop raiser has either a big pair of just big cards and button has a set). I'm probably a total wuss but, without a read on either player, I'd check/fold here despite the straight flush draw.

[amoeba]

wow talk about some loose players.

After evaluating further, I believe the turn push is a mistake. My earlier advice was incorrect.

[tabish]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you ever want to let a PP go in this situation. Folding a suited connector is one thing, but letting go of a PP is something I would never do here. The implied odds on this hand are absolutely absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]
With small pocket pairs (especially in early position), Ciaffone's 5/10 rule is useful. If you're committing less than 5% of your stack, it's an easy call, and if you're committing more than 10% it's an easy fold. At 10% of your stack, your implied odds are only there if you can double up if you make your set... which is possible, but definitely not guaranteed.

And like someone else mentioned, my advice to push on the turn isn't good. It's extremely unlikely that you've got a better hand than Button or MP1 if your draw doesn't hit, so there's no value in Button folding to your bet. If your flush or a 3 hits, Button may not call on the river, but an 8 is definitely good - most players won't suspect a straight draw at that point. (Given the cards MP1 actually had, a three of clubs would have been very nice if you had gotten to the river for free - and the three of diamonds would have been disastrous for you)

If you think you can see the river cheaply, then go for it. But with a pot that large, any bet less than all-in will seem weak to a decent opponent, and an overpair (which he's likely to have) will raise you all-in. But then again, you've got pot odds to call his all-in bet (unless someone already has a made full house), so maybe just check... it's possible that Button will check also or put out a small bet, which would let you see the river cheaply.

[josie_wales]

You should NOT be calling a 4xBB preflop raise with a drawing hand out of position.

jw

[josie_wales]

Ctide,


With one post you say you called because

[ QUOTE ]
while the pot odds were ALMOST there, the implied odds were huge.

[/ QUOTE ]


Then, in the next post say....

[ QUOTE ]
... I felt that if I hit my draw, I wasn't going to get any more out of the last remaining player,

[/ QUOTE ]

These statements contradict one another, I think.

jw

[Azrael_AOD]

What about a semi-bluff all-in on the flop by the Hero? you might be able to take it down right there. If the pf raiser only has a big pair or even overcards he might be unwilling to call, right? I love playing these kind of flops aggresively, though I might be playing them wrong. Also, you could check-reraise all in on the flop after the button calls the flop bet. That way you'd probably be able to get your pot odds for the straight draw and turn it into a +ev play.

Any comments? Am I talking sense or am I just talking outta my A!#?

[ctide]

[ QUOTE ]
Then, in the next post say....

[ QUOTE ]
... I felt that if I hit my draw, I wasn't going to get any more out of the last remaining player,

[/ QUOTE ]

These statements contradict one another, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. My implied odds are ALWAYS going to be much greater preflop than on the turn. At this point, most of my implied odds have already made their way into the pot. I made a $6 preflop call, and on the turn there's ~$150 in the pot. The chance of me getting the remainder of his stack in on the turn is much greater than on the river, especially if I hit the backdoor flush.

I'm not validating my action as being correct, however, since after review, I think it would have been better to just check. But the implied odds WERE huge, and those posts do not contradict each other.

[jcm4ccc]

I think you posted the results to prove that you did the right thing. The results don't prove anything. Everybody gets lucky sometimes.

You should be more proud of a hand that you play correctly and lose than a hand you play poorly and win.

You should have folded pre-flop. You were out of position with a weak hand.

[ctide]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you posted the results to prove that you did the right thing. The results don't prove anything. Everybody gets lucky sometimes.

You should be more proud of a hand that you play correctly and lose than a hand you play poorly and win.

You should have folded pre-flop. You were out of position with a weak hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for providing so much insight.

[jcm4ccc]

Sorry if my reply sounded snotty. Perhaps I was a little harsh.

But I count about 7 people who said you should have folded pre-flop, and you don't seem to acknowledge that. Do you agree, now that you've read everybody's replies, that you should have folded pre-flop? Or do you still think you did the right thing pre-flop?