Flop %

[Ralph Wiggum]

This has probably been discussed before, so my apologies to the regulars. I was wondering what Flops Seen %, on Party's stat tracker, would you guys consider to be too high in the 2/4 game? I think I'm seeing too many.

[busguy]

I'm in the 17 - 22 % range on Party 2-4

/images/graemlins/smile.gif busguy

[stoxtrader]

I'm at 17.5% in the party 15.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the 17 - 22 % range on Party 2-4

[/ QUOTE ]
So 30% would be too much?

[Ralph Wiggum]

You guys aren't talking about VPIP right? I just want to make sure this is flop seen %, as kept tracked by Party.

*Edit: This is sad, that this post is my 700th. PF questions! I'm such a noob.

[sublime]

You guys aren't talking about VPIP right? I just want to make sure this is flop seen %, as kept tracked by Party.

I have 'seen' 24.5% flops.

VP$IP is 19.32, which you should strive for beacuse I am the best player I live with.

[Bob T.]

30% is on the high side. If you got much higher, you would most likely be too high.

I don't think you need to be as low as a lot of people advocate around here. I think that you could clearly be profitable around 25%, and maybe a little higher, if you play well postflop. (and don't we all /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[busguy]

I find that I leak too much away if I am that high.

That being said, I don't know how you could posibly stay under 30% if you followed SSHE's starting hand suggestions for loose (6-8 players seeing flop) tables to a T !!

/images/graemlins/smile.gif busguy

[MoreWineII]

I swear to God, sometimes during live play it feels like my VPIP% is about 2%.

That's all, told you it was useless.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that you could clearly be profitable around 25%, and maybe a little higher, if you play well postflop.

[/ QUOTE ] This has been my belief for awhile. I'm in the middle of my longest losing streak ever, so it's got me questioning my game. I use to be pretty tight, but I've slowly loosened up over the past two months.

I think I've finally gotten to a point that I'm too loose. With Ed Miller's emphasis on postflop, I think I've gotten to the point that I've totally thrown caution to the wind when it came to starting hands. Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw is that it's Ed/SSH's fault that I'm losing. I'm a LAG, and I'm pretty sure people have me labeled as one. After crushing the 2/4 for over 4.5BB/100 (>20k hands), my losses have completely shattered my confidence (@3k hands, down 150BB).

I remember reading an essay or something (maybe by Mason) about how a player evolves. I recall that one of the stages is where the player becomes very aggressive, and loosens up PF. The writer said that a lot of players go bust at that point. I think I'm approaching that point. Then again, maybe I'm still on step 1.

LAGin it up,
Ralph

[MoreWineII]

Examples?

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
Examples?

[/ QUOTE ]
What do you mean? What hands I'd play PF?

Edit:
EP:
AXs
AJo & up
KTs & up
KQo & up, and maybe KJo
QTs & up
all PP
JTs, J9s, T9s, 98s

MP:
76s & up (sc)
97s & up (sc)
J8s & up (sc)
QJo & up
K9s, K8s
Q8s

LP:
54s & up (sc)
75s & up (sc)
K5s & up (Kxs)
Q7s & up (Qxs)
J7s & up (Jxs)

SB: Just about anything
Axo
K8o & up
Q9o & up
54o & up
etc

key:
(sc) = suited connecter, 1-gap, 2-gap, etc
(Kxs) = King-X suited

[MoreWineII]

Are there any specific hands off the top of your head in which you think you might be playing too loose?

[Ralph Wiggum]

Boo!

[MoreWineII]

It could be that you're just seeing a lot of those marginal types of hands lately.

When you are either seeing AA or Q3o, it's easy to stay out of trouble. When you're seeing a lot of A-10o and 78s, it can be tougher to discern a good hand from a crappy one.

My only advice is just to post a bunch of hands here for evaluation, but you already knew that. Maybe toss a few of the marginal ones for the time being.

G/l and I hope you break out of the slump. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[guppy]

Shouldn't this depend a lot on the texture of the game you are playing?

If there are a lot of callers and little raising, then you will automatically see all your BB hands, and a whole lot of SB hands as well. Probably a lot of hands on the button, too. That could put you around 20% even without considering the times you pick up a hand in early or mid position.

OTOH, if you have some LAGs in your game, you may find that nearly every hand is raised preflop, and you play almost no SB hands and few BB hands, and your flop seen % is likely at least 10-15% lower in this game.

VP$IP will from Poker Tracker will be somewhat less sensitive to this, since it doesn't count walks in the BB, but should still be lower in the second game.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't this depend a lot on the texture of the game you are playing?


[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

SSH, particularly the loose game advise, it targeted at games that play much more like the .5/1. Sometimes the 2/4 table plays like that. Sometimes it's 2-4 to the flop with weak spots mixed him. Sometimes you just have a couple players throwing a party. Sometimes it's a pissing contest between LAgs and whoever else has a hand.

After reading SSH, for example, I started defaulting to limping with 22-55 from EP, would get raised and end up in a 3-way pot. My results went down and although there were some *horrible* beats mixed in there I recognised a lot of trouble spots I was getting myself into by opening up too much too quickly.

Anyway, I've gone back to my tight openers, bringing in the baby pairs, connectors, suited aces, etc. only after a couple limpers. I assume the game is tight until it's shown to be a passive limp-fest. Then I loosen up my EP and MP standards. Since then, my game has gotten back on track.

BTW, my VP$IP is at around 18%

[busguy]

[ QUOTE ]


I think I've finally gotten to a point that I'm too loose. With Ed Miller's emphasis on postflop, I think I've gotten to the point that I've totally thrown caution to the wind when it came to starting hands. Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw is that it's Ed/SSH's fault that I'm losing. I'm a LAG, and I'm pretty sure people have me labeled as one. After crushing the 2/4 for over 4.5BB/100 (>20k hands), my losses have completely shattered my confidence (@3k hands, down 150BB).



[/ QUOTE ]

While I don't think I would agree that "it is Ed/SSH's fault ", I do think that you may be on to something for you personally (and me).

I have had a similar experience over the past couple of weeks after reading SSHE. I would characterize myself as a fairly tight aggressive player with the occasionally weak moment (mostly when I'm stuck) thrown in there. In the first week of/after reading SSHE I was down 150 + BB at Party 2/4. It seemed like I couldn't do anything right and I was really (for the first time in a long time) starting to second guess my abilities.

I took a day or two off and analyzed my play over the previous week and came up with the following conclusions:

1) I was having a bad run of cards. Nothing was hitting. It happens.

2) My flop percentage had sky rocketed. Where before I was in the 17-20 percent range, during that week I was in the 25-32 percent range as I had loosened up my starting hand requirements a "ton" to more closely follow the "loose table' starting hand tables in SSH.

2) I was staying in WAY too long on TOO many of my hands. Where before I would pick my spots with my marginal draws, I was now playing "most" of them to their conclusion.

3) I was almost hyper-aggressive with bets/raises/re-raises causing me to be that much further "buried" when I didn't make my hand.


I have tightened up since then and am up about 125 + BB so far in the past 6-7 days.

Some thoughts:

I personally feel that SSHE pre-flop recommendations are a little to loose for the Internet game (especially when multi-tabling). Ax suited was a fairly good size leak (in EP/MP) for me in the past as were small pocket pairs in EP. I couldn't even bring myself to play some of the suited suggestions like Kxs or Qxs, little lone J7s or Q8s.

If you follow the "loose table" starting hand table in SSHE when playing 2 or more tables at a site like Party I think your variance would be "HUGE". Not that the variance can't be overcome over the long run but it would be unsettling to a lot of people. Stars and Ultimate Bet might be a slightly different story but not by much imo.

The starting tables in SSHE are, I believe, very well suited (maybe ideal) to the live (B&M) game. If all you played was your "premium" cards in live games you could be there for days during a slow run of cards.

The Post-flop suggestions in SSHE are excellent IMO for both live and lnternet play. I have had good success (extremely short term results obviously) using them now that I have switched back to a slightly tighter starting style although this style is not that much different to how I played post-flop prior to reading SSHE.

I will never again change my style of play SO dramatically after reading a book, but rather make small adjustments to test certain strategies or styles. I think I threw myself into the SSHE thing so completely because of the amount of hype and fanfare that it recieved in this forum pre and post release.

Again I think the best suggestion that I could make is to stick to what works for you and stay open to new idea's, but don't make any wholesale or radical changes unless you think your game requires it.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif my 2 cents.

Oh and by the way, based on the above I think that your starting hand list from your post above is WAY to loose (for Party 2/4 and for me anyway).

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]
After reading SSH, for example, I started defaulting to limping with 22-55 from EP, would get raised and end up in a 3-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I basically ignored the charts because SSHE gives you so much more in the pages preceeding the catch-all chart. The book provides the situations and positions where hands are playable.

The advice for small pairs (pg 67) makes it clear that you don't want to 'default' to playing them. The texture of the game really defines if they are playable. If you are unlikely to be raised pre-flop then you can definitely limp in with them. I have played lots of games where players won't raise with anything short of QQ and higher, and generally I was the aggressor pf. Fine. So I can play there. Other games people would play live straddles and raise in the dark, now my low pocket pairs became unplayable in early position.

Pf strategy is all situationally dependant, and it was SSHE which actually made me more aware of these things, whereas before I blindly played a chart.

[jdsmoooth]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I've finally gotten to a point that I'm too loose. With Ed Miller's emphasis on postflop, I think I've gotten to the point that I've totally thrown caution to the wind when it came to starting hands. Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw is that it's Ed/SSH's fault that I'm losing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know later in another post you said that you didn't necessarily feel that it was Mr. Miller’s fault that you were losing, which I do agree with. I will tell you this, not at any point in the book does it tell you to “throw caution to the wind.” There are many “if then” scenarios associated with the starting hand chart. Please re-read the chapter on preflop play especially pages 84 through 93. My guess is that you are so focused on opening up your game that you are failing to evaluate the proper game situations to do so. There are many different game variables that have to be just right to play the amount of hands you are playing. I also do not see “just about any two cards” as one of the hands you should play out of the small blind, and I definitely did not see K8o just to name a specific hand.

Mr. Miller’s book does stress the importance of outplaying your opponents post flop. The question is how good are you at outplaying your opponents?. Many of us have a skewed view of our talents. A tricky aggressive player is real nightmare when you have inferior holdings in your hand. So try to have the goods or a monster draw to the nuts when your locked up with other solid players or at least until you feel you have a superior read on their plays.

Last but not least, it seems that you feel that some of the new found skills you are learning about in this book are going to be easy to apply. Learning a new way to approach Hold’em and committing yourself to change takes, dedication, patience, practice and a complete understanding of the principles you are trying to accomplish. So my suggestion is to slow down a little, start from the beginning and gradually make the changes outlined in SSH. You will be better for it and so will your bankroll.

[Fnord]

Sayth the Book of Miller, Chapter "Preflop Play Afterthought", verse 3, p93

"Our advise is to follow the loose game guidelines until proven otherwise. That's because at the small stakes there are so many confused and poorly-skilled players that failing to play the extra ahnds should prove farm more costly those times when you should play them than they will save you those times you should throw them away."

[MicroBob]

I think we have already made this determination though.

I'm pretty sure we have determined that 2/4 and 3/6 on party is typically 35-40% seeing the flop.
This would fall on the tight side of Ed's tight-chart.

I have NEVER been on a party 2/4 or 3/6 table that was averaging 5-7 players seeing the flop (at least not for very long anyway). I'd say that assuming the average to the flop is 4 would be close enough to accurate until you determine differently.


You can also go back and think about some of these hands. Are you getting the multi-way action you need to justify low PP and Axs?
Don't just assume that your tables are loose enough PF to justify it.

I think 'assuming loose until proven otherwise' is okay on B&M tables. But on Party 2/4 and 3/6 we already KNOW that it's probably going to be 4 (maybe 5) to the flop on average.


I don't recommend playing KJo in EP nor T9s or 98s.


My VPIP on party full-ring is 18 and my SF% is 23-25 or so.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw is that it's Ed/SSH's fault that I'm losing.

[/ QUOTE ] This statement was me being sarcastic.

Honestly though, Ed Miller is someone who has greatly improved my game, and should be adored/worshipped by all. Keep a photo of him, so you can kneel to it, before every session of poker. Also get a statue too and rub his forehead and/or belly to get rid of all bad beats for the upcoming week.