T9s large pot hand

[Allan]

Here's a hand from last night that I thought I would post. Obviously the game is very loose and very good. Here it is. PFR seems like an average oponents thus far:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Allan is CO with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Allan calls, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(9 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Allan calls, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Allan raises</font>, Button folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (22.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Allan ?




Thanks for comments,


Allan

[spamuell]

Please explain why you did not raise the flop.

EDIT: OK, you don't need to explain, I posted that after seeing the flop action in absolute shock without reading the rest of the hand. I see you were waiting for the turn but I really think it's better to raise the flop here, it's such a perfect opportunity to knock out so many hands you don't want calling. Who knows what is going to fall on the turn and how the action will go, raise the flop.

[daveymck]

Personally I fold this pre flop even with all the callers, others will disagree and its probably marginal.

You played it so on this flop you have to raise make everyone one call two cold and get some folders. This is not a hand to wait to the turn imho.

Bet the river.

[Bob T.]

I wouldn't have played for two bets preflop. Your hand is usually the type of hand that thrives with implied odds, and playing for two bets with the preflop raiser immediately to your right, you will probably be able to win the least if you make your hand.

Once you get to the river, I can't imagine doing anything other than betting.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I fold this pre flop even with all the callers, others will disagree and its probably marginal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a pretty clear call, you're likely going to be playing at least 7 handed for 2 bets which means BIG pot for you if you win, your implied odds are fine. I might run some sims when I get home to do with pre-flop equity and ranges of hands but they won't accurately reflect how big a pot you are going to win when you hit your straight or flush, not to mention the time that your pair of tens or nines holds up as it should have done here, or two pair or a set.

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I can't imagine not betting this river (my imagination is incredibly limited).

[me454555]

The pot is too big to raise the flop. Everyone would be getting at least 10.5:1 on their call so who's folding? By waiting till the turn, he can cut down on their odds even more and possibly induce fold

[Bob T.]

I think this is a pretty clear call, you're likely going to be playing at least 7 handed for 2 bets which means BIG pot for you if you win, your implied odds are fine.

I really disagree, with the preflop raiser to your immediate right, it is going to be hard to get paid well on this hand if you make it, so I think it is an easy fold. At the same time, if I had limped, I really wouldn't mind a raise behind me.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is too big to raise the flop. Everyone would be getting at least 10.5:1 on their call so who's folding? By waiting till the turn, he can cut down on their odds even more and possibly induce fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is a chance that some people might fold, he is first to act after the bettor, if he was last to act after everyone has put in a bet then yes fair enough noone will fold but his hand is very vunerable so an attempt at protecting earlier is better than later.

Raising here makes it 10-1 ish rather than the 21-1 his limp made it.

[Trix]

I dont think the relative position will hurt you that much as people very often will coldcall crap preflop, since the pot is that huge.

I´m considering 3betting preflop, how is that ?
I think it will win it´s share and they will call two cold.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is too big to raise the flop. Everyone would be getting at least 10.5:1 on their call so who's folding? By waiting till the turn, he can cut down on their odds even more and possibly induce fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this principle but do not think that it applies here for the following reasons:

- There are lots of cards that could fall on the turn to make you reluctant to raise
- Any straight/flush card, card above T or card that pairs that board could induce the bettor to check or a bet to come from a different place, so you won't be afforded the same opportunity to trap the field for two bets.
- If you raise the flop here and get 3-bet, this gives you a better idea of where you are in the hand rather than you call, one of the people behind you raises, you call again, all check to them on the turn, they bet, now what?

Ultimately, you just don't know what is going to happen after your action. You have been given a perfect opportunity to make the field face two bets cold when you have a vulnerable hand, I think it is better to take that when presented with it than hope that no one behinds you raises and the same bettor bets the turn again and this induces a fold from a hand which would have called two cold on the flop and then this hand goes on to win the pot.

[spamuell]

I´m considering 3betting preflop, how is that ?

Been reading Carson lately? I prefer 3-betting to folding here for sure and it's worth considering over calling. I suppose from a pot equity point of view it's a good idea but from an implied odds one it's not, I don't know which should weigh more heavily here.

[Trix]

Carson´s book was one of the first I read. Middle limit holdem and SSH are the last I´ve read. Going through inside the pokermind atm though, but slowly as I started at uni, so dont have that much time for poker these days.

[me454555]

Giving people 21:1 sux but the alternative isn't much better. Let say he raises the flop, anyone w/a dencent draw calls(Overcards, gutshots, singleton overs too if theres a call or 2 infront of them). Lets say 4 people call. Now theres 15bbs in the pot. Its checked to him on the turn, he bets, and everone calls b/c the pot is just too big to fold. Its giving them the correct odds to draw on you

By waiting for the turn to raise, he can at least cut down on the odds of some of his opponents. Even though he lets them draw out on him on the flop, they won't be seeing the river w/the correct odds. He is giving them only 1 chance to make their draw instead of 2.

The other thing to consider when making a flop raise is which hands it will eliminate. What types of hands will fold on the flop? Some low pps who probobly won't hit anyway. By waiting till the turn to raise, you can really cut down on the number of opponents you have to face b/c you can face the field w/a double sized double bet. He's giving people 6:1 on this turn bet which would eliminate gutshots, overcards and all but an oesd.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
. What types of hands will fold on the flop? Some low pps who probobly won't hit anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

But they're getting the odds to if you don't raise. You also don't want to give good odds to a single overcard.

[ QUOTE ]
By waiting till the turn to raise, you can really cut down on the number of opponents you have to face b/c you can face the field w/a double sized double bet. He's giving people 6:1 on this turn bet which would eliminate gutshots, overcards and all but an oesd.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it's fairly likely that the situation will be very different by the turn if you just call the flop.

[sublime]

By waiting for the turn to raise, he can at least cut down on the odds of some of his opponents. Even though he lets them draw out on him on the flop, they won't be seeing the river w/the correct odds. He is giving them only 1 chance to make their draw instead of 2.

In theory I belive you are correct ME. But in a live game I think you should just seize this chance to raise. If I *knew* that I could force the field to call two on the turn then I would, but I think I would just raise if this flop given the chance.

Also, anybody with two overcards is getting correct odds to call two here, but how good would you feel about calling two cold withj AJo/KQo/KJo after it has been raised behind you preflop and then you have to call two on the flop?