My first 100 hours of holdem

The following post may be a bit different than some of the others here because it will deal with the macro concept of learning to play holdem and not a specific theory or concept. It will be a long post I warn you. I am doing it for several reasons. 1) I would like any feedback on my first 100 hours and how i have approached the games. 2) Posting this will, I hope, help me organize my thoughts about my experiences. 3) I hope it may help other beginning players. I am acutally going to cover the first 119 hours played because I went from 98 to 119 on my recent Las Vegas trip.


First some general information: My first casino holdem game that I kept records on was 7/21/00. There may have been a session or two before this but I started keeping records when i decided to get serious about the game. Only 119 hours in two years? I live about 3.5 hours from the nearest card room and one of my great disappointments is that I do not get to play any more than I do.

I keep records on where I played, how long, what limit, and how much I won or loss.


The numbers

Total win/loss at 119 hours: +$193

Total sessions played: 37

Won/loss session record: 21-16

Biggest win: +$265 - Horseshoe in Tunica 4 hours

Biggest loss: -$202 Grand Casino Gulfport Ms. 6 hours

Average session length: around 3 hours

Win/loss first 50 hours vs 2nd 50: +$299 vs - $106

Longest win streak: 6 sessions las vegas 11/00 +318

Longest losing streak: Vicksburg Ms/Marksville La 3/01 -$370.

Longest session: 6 hours -$202 Shortest 1 hour plus $4


Casinos played: Bellagio, Excalibur, Sahara, Mirage - Las Vegas

Sams town, Grand, Horseshoe, GoldStrike - Tunica Ms

Ameristar - Vicksburg Ms.

Grand - Marksville La

Grand - Gulfport Ms and Biloxi Ms.


The training:

Books read: HFAP and The theory of poker by skalanksy and malmuth. Lee Jones low limit poker book, both Lou Krieger holdem books. Andy Nelsons books on low limit poker. The fundamental secrets of poker by Caro. Ken Warrens winners guide to low limit holdem. I am or will re-read all as playing time has given me more persepctive.

Software: Turbo Texas holdem.

magazines: CardPlayer subscriber. Will subscribe to Poker Digest in the next few weeks.

I try and spend 6-8 hours a week either reading or on TTH.


Strengths: 1)Card Selection - I think I have stronger standards than most of my opponents. 2) Selective Agressiveness


Weaknesses: 1) Concentration - I really struggle with this sometimes. I have a tendency at times to drift back into 'level one thinking' sometimes. Ie I play my cards without enought thought to what my opponent may have. 2)Discipline - I am too reactive and do not take time to think my moves through. I should spend time determining the best strategy. 3) Hand reading skills - something I need to practice more. I have rudimentary skills. I usually know when I am ahead or behind but I have a lot of room to improve here.


The most exciting thing and at the same time frustrating thing right now is that I feel i am very close to a break through to the next level of skills. I can see the right/better moves to make but only 'in the rear view mirror.' Example: I flopped the nut flush in a 1-4-8-8 game recently. I checked and smooth called a bet along with two other players on the flop. On the turn I check raised driving everyone out. Immediately I realized that if I had called here and bet the river, I would have probably got a caller or two and made more money. In other words, I am just a beat slow in my decison making. I also need to trust my instincts more. I seem to have a good sense as to when I am beat or ahead but don't always follow this instinct.


My main goal right now is to play more. I really think what I need is more time at the table. My first 50 hours of play was better than my last 50 but I am trying not to read too much into this.


Thanks for the indulgence of such and long post. I think it may be a bit rambling at times but i have succeded on one level: I have organized my thoughts on my first 119 hours. Any feedback is most welcom...john b.

I thought your post was interesting and it was helpful for me as well. I just started playing. The first table I sat at was a 3-6 game at the Mirage last Feb. I lost. I had no idea how to play. I started playing in a weekly, friendly home game, and after about 6 months, I decided to start going to a poker room. The first couple times I went, I hadn't read anything, although I am smart enough and a good enough card player in general to know the importance of starting hands, but not position. So I naturally lost in the 5-10 games I played in. I then read a couple of books on hold em, greatly improved on my starting hands, and position, and won 7 out of 8 times I played (all 5-10). I made a total of about 2400. I then played at a 10-20 game, and won about 500, only to lose it the following day at the 10-20. I lost about 3 more 10-20, and one 15-30, and it cost me a thousand or so. I've now been playing regularly for about 3 months, and roughly 230 hours. When I play at a 5-10, I usually can make 150-200, but I can't seem to win at a 10-20. I think skill wise, I am good enough, but there's a huge glitch in my game, and I'm not sure what it is.

I have good starting hand selection. I play about 1.5-1.6 hands a round, including both blinds. I think I have a good sense of reading what other players have. I'm aggressive when I think its the right play, and passive when I feel its necessary. My bankroll though is so inconsistent. I go way up and then way down. I never rebuy, which can be a problem. So, if anyone is actually reading this, what can I do to improve my 10-20 game, so I can consistently win, and play higher limit games? (I read so there has to be more to it than that). I would imagine someone will say play 5-10 or something lower than 10-20, but I think the problem with that is I play a lot more of an advanced strategy and use some advanced concepts, and I would assume everyone knows that a lot of those plays don't work out as well against weak players. I go to Vegas in 2 weeks, and would like all the advice I can muster before I go and play in bigger games while I'm there.

"I never rebuy, which can be a problem."


You never rebuy? Is this some kind of money management scheme? Or are you just low on funds?

Sounds like you're on your way to becoming a very tough player. Hope you get to play more--away from my table.


Good luck.

Your results are not that useful in this form. All results must be standardized to big bets in order to evaluate them usefully.


For example, lets say you have won, in your 119 hours, 300BB. You have won 350BB playing 3-6 (net 2100) and lost 50 BB playing 20-40. Your results then mean something.


You also need to calculate your hourly BB standard deviation.


You also need to work on your "results based thinking". You describe one hand where everyone folded when you raised and you had the nut flush. What if someone had had the second nut flush there? You would have been paid off handsomely. Or what if someone had a set? Don't assume that simply because a play resulted in one thing that you automatically played it correctly or incorrectly: sometimes the cards play themselves and unless you can see your opponent's hand, its pretty tough to know exactly what to do.


Finally, I think that 119 hours is not significant data, especially spread over such a long time period, where you will have been playing at several different levels of knowledge and ability.


I commend you on keeping accurate results and taking the time to analyze them. Its a key step in improvement. Just don't be in a rush to draw conclusions from them.

"3) Hand reading skills - something I need to practice more. I have rudimentary skills. I usually know when I am ahead or behind but I have a lot of room to improve here."


"something I need to practice more" - I doubt there are any players that can't say the same thing after multiple of 1000s of hours.


I started out playing where I couldn't play very consistently. I think it takes a lot of determination and discipline to get much out of your practice sessions. You might consider playing online as a way to keep tuned up. Otherwise I think your going to have a long hard road to playing higher limits.


As another poster said the data you posted wasn't overly useful in the form you posted it but even if you normalized it you don't have enough data to draw many conclusions from. One thing I saw that was good is that you don't seem to play long sessions eventhough you don't get to play very often. That speaks to your discipline.

Mr. Lade, you are doing EXACTLY the right thing.


You start out by out-tighing the micro-limit jokers for a couple hundred dollars. Then you gain confidence, move up in size, and pay our rent. Thanks!


Keep coming! Once you can beat yourself, you will be ready to sit in 15-30 all weekend waiting for yourself to show up:)


I doubt there is any other way to do it, except maybe find the toughest 4-8 game you can find, so that you can learn from mistakes at lower limits. But I would discourage that.


ku

it seems to me not re-buying is the smartest thing bomb-lade can do. after all, he has not yet acquired the sophistication to calculate whether he has a positive expectation.


so whether he has gone through his initial stack is the strongest - if not the only - statistical indicator he has as to whether he has a positive expectation.


ku

I would recommend that you play online. Since you posted here I'm guessing you have a computer and can get online and that would be more convienent than driving. Planetpoker has tables as cheap as .05/.10 and Pokerstars, Pokerpages and other sites have free tournaments. So cost should not be a problem. Playing online can give you experience that not even the TTH can duplicate.

what's so advanced about knowing and reading your opponents and outplaying them? advanced concepts shmadvanced schmoncepts... if you can beat 10-20, you can beat 5-10 (as long as the rake is equivalent.)

Your post indicates that you are not ready to play at the 10/20 level nor the 5/10 level.


"I then read a couple of books on hold em, greatly improved on my starting hands, and position, and won 7 out of 8 times I played (all 5-10). "


This is just the tip of the iceberg! Your winning 7/8 can easily cause you to believe you are better than you really are. This is likely why you believe you are good enough to beat the 10/20


"I think skill wise, I am good enough, but there's a huge glitch in my game, and I'm not sure what it is"


Trust me here ... if you have a huge glitch and are a skilled player you will know what it is. It's the small leaks that look large to others that are the problem.


"I've now been playing regularly for about 3 months, and roughly 230 hours."


Very little experience


"When I play at a 5-10, I usually can make 150-200, but "


This makes no sense. If it's your average for a 6-8 hour session then consider that you can make about 5000 month playing 5/10.

I have not heard of anyone capable of this.


You CANNOT gain anything in 2 weeks that will help enough to beat the bigger games in Vegas.


Don't worry, all players have been where you are now. Continue to study and play low limit for a while longer.


I think some sample hands would be better for this forum to analyse.


Regards

Mike N

I would suggest "Zen and the Art of poker".


Good Habits.

bomblade wrote:


"I would imagine someone will say play 5-10 or something lower than 10-20, but I think the problem with that is I play a lot more of an advanced strategy and use some advanced concepts, and I would assume everyone knows that a lot of those plays don't work out as well against weak players. I go to Vegas in 2 weeks, and would like all the advice I can muster before I go and play in bigger games while I'm there"


I wouldn't suggest playing lower limits if you can't take it as seriously as higher limits. I'm sure it will be less interesting after having played higher.


However, it seems misguided at best to suggest you're too good to beat bad players. You might want to think about this some more as you're looking for leaks.

I don't see why you've never heard of anyone capable of 150-200 a night, playing 8 hour sessions. I never implied that every single time I play I make this amount. If doing 200 a session, and 5 sessions a week, is some unbelievably great thing, than I'm way better than I thought.

I shouldn't have said "big" glitch, nor should I have said I don't know what it is. I know exactly what it is. Its actually a few things. Minimizing my losses is one of them. I don't know if losing AK 10 out of 11 times is common, a cold streak, or out of the ordinary. That's sort of a problem, is that I don't know.

In terms of not being ready for 5/10 games, its the lowest limit at the place I play, except for a 2 1/2-5 game on the weekends. I've already said that I consistently am up when I leave a 5/10 game. Why not play at a 10/20, and learn at that table? In my personal opinion, I don't think, at the place I play at, the 10/20 players are that great. If my bankroll justifies me a 10/20 seat, I'm going to take it. By the way, I have won playing in that game. Overall, I'm down, but not by that much.

I didn't see very much constructive criticism in very many of the replies, it seemed more like ripping. Maybe my post came off like I was bragging, which I wasn't. I post so if anyone has some helpful things to tell me, I can learn some more.

I have that, I've read through a lot of it. It is pretty helpful.

you play at the hollywood casino in aurora illinois, don't you? maybe you don't but ive never seen nor heard of that limit anywhere else. in this case i think the 5-10 game is better if your bankroll can handle it. the rake is the same (10% up to $5) as the 2.50-5 game. thats a difference of 100% considering the limits. the 2.50 game is only beatable on saturdays i think. sure, you can have a good night, but in the long run its just extremely passive showdown poker. (beatable but not worth it) stick with the 5-10 and keep reading.

Hmmm, wasn't ripping but acually trying to help.

Point out where I ripped you and I'll explain it or apologise.


Regards

Mike N

"If doing 200 a session, and 5 sessions a week, is some unbelievably great thing, than I'm way better than I thought."


200 is possible in 1 hand. 2-3 BB hour consistently is very very good.


"I shouldn't have said "big" glitch, nor should I have said I don't know what it is. I know exactly what it is"


Losing AK 10/11 times is not a leak. An A or K does not come every time and doesn't always hold up when it does (as you know)


What is the big glitch that you exactly do know what it is? Minimizing losses is done by playing very tightly and not chasing too much.


Good Luck

Mike N

I know that AK isn't going to win all the time. I know the better the player, the more he can win with AK. I'm just wondering if its that common for AK to lose that much, just in terms of not making best or even second best hand. The same goes for AJ, suited or unsuited. I never make a thing when I play it.

When I said minimize my losses, I know about playing tight. From what I see, I usually am the tightest player at the table. I don't go on tilt, and I see people do that fairly often. Even players that I know are good. When I say minimize my losses, I mean, how do I minimize my losses on hands like AK, or AJ? This is a question that I would really love help with. Cause this is where I'm getting killed. Is it just a matter of reading the other players and figuring out what they have?

Do you typically raise with AK or limp.


Generally a raising hand but it starts to lose value with many limpers ahead of you in late position.


Fewer players the better chance it has of course. Typically the tight player folds when bet into on the flop (no A or K) but certain factors may make a raise the best play. It can be a trouble hand but obviously a money maker. (Note that AK is easier to get away from than AA or KK so shouldn't lose as much when it is beat)


Hands like AJs also make money but you must consider position and who has entered the pot ahead of you

It all depends on position and if I'm first one in. If I'm in late position, I raise with AK every time. If I'm in 6 or 7, I will raise if I'm first one in. Generally, if I limp in, and someone bets on the flop, I'll fold it. I'd think it was the right move, if not for anything but to not let in on how I play certain hands. If I am the preflop raiser and I am last to act after the flop, I'll reraise them. I can put them on a hand that way. If they reraise me, then I know they've made at least part of their hand. If they just call, I am pretty sure I'll get a free card on the turn, if an A or K doesn't fall. I will throw a hand away if I know it can't win. But when I'm constantly getting rivered, I tend to lose confidence in some of my hands and muck them too soon. Again, its something I'm working on, and any additional advice is welcomed,

Excuse me if I repeat what others have said, but I just read your post and would like to commend you on your approach to the game. You've read the right books and your record keeping is a good sign (I assume you also record the betting limits of the games). You do not have enough hours yet to draw any conclusions from your records.


The fact that you are recognizing mistakes you make "in the rear view mirror" is good. With more experience, you will more frequently catch these mistakes BEFORE you make them! Playing with the TTH software can help speed this process IMO. You might also consider playing low limit games online. I found the competition in the 2-4 to 5-10 games on Paradise Poker to be generally tougher than in live casinos; however, they also offer .50-1 and 1-2 games which may be provide good experience with less financial risk.


Regards,


Mike

What is TTH or IMO for that matter? I've seen this a few times, and would follow the advice indefinitely, but I don't know what is is. Thanks for the response though.

Texas Turbo Holdem


and In My Opinion

Thanks to all who responded for the encouragement and suggestions...john b.