Question about stealing blinds/gap concept in NL tournaments

[DrGonzo]

I've been playing NL holdem tournaments for a while, but I still have a lot of questions and a lot to learn. One thing I'm wondering about is when to be aggressive and try to steal the blinds in the later stages of a tournament.

I know that the gap concept tells us that it is correct to raise with hands that are not good enough to call a raise with. The gap is especially large in the late stages of a tournament.

Now, say that your opponents are fairly tight and cautious. They would not call a big pre-flop raise without having a rather strong hand. This is a good opportunity for stealing the blinds, but it would be very bad to be called if you hold a semi-strong hand, since you risk being dominated. Would it not be a better idea to raise with a weaker hand that might win the pot right away and probably is not dominated if you are called?

For instance, say that the blinds are 50-100. You have 500. You sit before the button and everyone folds to you. Would you rather raise all-in with a hand like A7 than with a hand like 89s? A7 has a better chance of being the best hand, but if someone calls, it is likely that it is dominated.

Thanks for any thoughts about this!

[Eder]

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For instance, say that the blinds are 50-100. You have 500. You sit before the button and everyone folds to you. Would you rather raise all-in with a hand like A7 than with a hand like 89s? A7 has a better chance of being the best hand, but if someone calls, it is likely that it is dominated.

Thanks for any thoughts about this!

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I would push with both of these hands with only 5BB

[Phill S]

absolutely.

if your going for a steal what you have is much less important than what they have (and what they think you have more importantly). so by definition pushing on 27 is a fair move.

as for which is best, its more a case of do you think youll be called. in which case is this the right time for a steal??? and if you dont think youll be called (not likely anyway) then they play exactly the same.

Phill

[parappa]

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For instance, say that the blinds are 50-100. You have 500. You sit before the button and everyone folds to you. Would you rather raise all-in with a hand like A7 than with a hand like 89s? A7 has a better chance of being the best hand, but if someone calls, it is likely that it is dominated.

Thanks for any thoughts about this!

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I would push with both of these hands with only 5BB

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Really, Eder? I'm going to make up some chip stacks.

5-handed, blinds 50/100
UTG (2500)
Eder/Hero (500)
Button (1500)
SB (2500)
BB (1000)

or something. Do you push here with A7 or 89s? Feel free to jiggle around the stack sizes or put yourself on the button or whatever. Is it a high-limit v low-limit thing? I've never really considered playing that loose at 10+1.

[Victor]

I push with A7 regardless of position every time with stack sizes like this.

89s I am unsure of. I think I would open-push from the button or sb.

[DrGonzo]

Wow, thanks for all the quick reponses!

Let me clarify a little what I was thinking about. I'm NOT assuming a low-level tournament with loose players. I'm assuming that my opponents are tight and play cautiously. Furthermore, I'm assuming that I have been playing tight myself and that my opponents are aware of that.

Therefore I only expect to be called with strong hands, such as AK, AQ, AJ, AT and AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT.

If I can assume that, would it not be better to raise all-in with a drawing hand, such as 89s than with an ace with weak kicker? With neither of the hands I want to be called of course, but sometimes I will be called. I think I should consider what my odds are then, even when I am trying to steal. The ace-hand is stronger against a random hand, but it will be weaker than 89s against most of the hands in the AK-AT, AA-TT interval. Am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Maybe Phill is right, If I am playing against so tight players that I think I will be able to steal the blinds I can do that with just about any hand and do not need to consider the odds if I would get called? This will of course not work if I do it all the time, but if I pick my spots, maybe what I hold myself is of no importance whatsoever?

Thanks again!

[parappa]

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I push with A7 regardless of position every time with stack sizes like this.

89s I am unsure of. I think I would open-push from the button or sb.

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How low will you go, Victor? Is A7 the min or would you push A2? And because I think it's important, what buy-in is this reasonable play at and do you think that it's reasonable at 10s?

I ask because I went through a baddish losing streak that I eventually blamed on making just these kinds of pushes and am wondering if I've overreacted.

[Eder]

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For instance, say that the blinds are 50-100. You have 500. You sit before the button and everyone folds to you. Would you rather raise all-in with a hand like A7 than with a hand like 89s? A7 has a better chance of being the best hand, but if someone calls, it is likely that it is dominated.

Thanks for any thoughts about this!

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push with both of these hands with only 5BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, Eder? I'm going to make up some chip stacks.

5-handed, blinds 50/100
UTG (2500)
Eder/Hero (500)
Button (1500)
SB (2500)
BB (1000)

or something. Do you push here with A7 or 89s? Feel free to jiggle around the stack sizes or put yourself on the button or whatever. Is it a high-limit v low-limit thing? I've never really considered playing that loose at 10+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the question was push or no in late position with only 5BB...I think both are good hands in this spot...and I dont mind a call with either hand if it happened...jmo

[NotMitch]

With 5xBB and in last place 5 handed UTG pushing with any 2 can't be that far wrong.

[J.A.Sucker]

Both are pretty close. A lot of these yahoos will call with KJ or something, so A7 is better. FWIW, stealing the blinds and such is what nobody understands in these tournaments. I will not elaborate on this, though, but i would push both of these hands.

[ilya]

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Therefore I only expect to be called with strong hands, such as AK, AQ, AJ, AT and AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT.

If I can assume that, would it not be better to raise all-in with a drawing hand, such as 89s than with an ace with weak kicker? With neither of the hands I want to be called of course, but sometimes I will be called. I think I should consider what my odds are then, even when I am trying to steal. The ace-hand is stronger against a random hand, but it will be weaker than 89s against most of the hands in the AK-AT, AA-TT interval. Am I thinking about this the wrong way?



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Don't forget that if you hold an Ace it's considerably less likely that any of your opponents also has an Ace (5-handed, the probability that none of your opponents holds an Ace rises from 48% to 58% if you hold an Ace yourself), and **much** less likely that anyone has AA.
This is enough to make me prefer A7 over 89s. 5-handed, down to 5xbb, I may push with 89s...but I _always_ push with A7o.

[Victor]

As not mitch said in the post below pushing, your biggest enemy here is the blinds and your small stack size. Having and A is huge here. Kx is also great because it gives you the ability to win without improving. That is why 89s is not that good. A2 is certainly pushable here too.

When you ask, "How low would you go?" you should be refering to stack size in relation to blind. i.e. How low would your stack size need to be in relation to the blinds to push allin with Ax? I dont have any hard rules for it as I just play on instinct in these tourneys due to the multitude of situations you face, but after putting some thought into a stack size of 5xBB or less seems like it would be a great baseline.

Oh yea, the buyins should be irrelevant at this point.

[DrGonzo]

Good answers! It's a very good point that there is less of a chance that the opponent will be holding an ace when you are. Still, taking your own ace into account, there are 12 each of AK, AQ, AJ, AT and only 6 each of the pairs.

It seems like most people would always push with A7 and they would push with 89s if they thought there was a big chance of stealing the blinds with a raise. That is how I would play it as well. Your small stack forces you to take action.

Suppose that in the same scenario you have a bigger stack. You have 1500 instead of 500 and the opponents have about 2000 each. The blinds are still 50-100.

If I play I would prefer raising to limping. Normally I would fold both A7 and 89s. A7 is to weak and you have too small of a stack to get drawing value for 89s. However, if I thought there was a good chance I could win the blinds with a raise, I probably would raise to about 300.

In this situation, how would you feel about the hands A7 and 89s? Still not afraid of being dominated by Ax, where x > 7? I actually think I would prefer trying to steal with 89s here. If I am called preflop, I would be more comfortable on the flop if I hit straight draw/flush draw/8 or 9 with rags than I would be if I hit the ace.

[Gramps]

I'd take A7 in your spot, because with only 500 in chips at 50/100, the BB may make a pot odds call (400 to win 650) with a worse non-pair hand that you're a favorite against with A7, but a 3 to 2 or worse dog with with 98s. If you get called with 98s, then 22-77 is really the best you can hope for.

[eastbay]

Find the thread about the Sklansky-Karlson NL hand rankings. This will open your eyes to and deepen your appreciation for the fundamentals of blind stealing.

eastbay