turn fold okay?

[zerosports]

I'm unsure if I played this hand correctly,especially the open limp. help me out guys!

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[Piiop]

Raise preflop. You should never open limp from MP3.

[spamuell]

Raise pre-flop.

I like the flop bet, button might raise and make SB and BB have to call two bets cold. Also, you really don't want to let this flop get checked through.

Good fold on the turn when the K hits. I don't see many hands raising here that you beat. A harder decision is if you have QQ on the turn and get raised, because then button could conceivably have 88-JJ. Or if you have 77 and the turn is 2/images/graemlins/club.gif

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm unsure if I played this hand correctly,especially the open limp. help me out guys!

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is fine. I wouldn't raise 77 in a low limit game.

Flop, you should've checked. Your edge is tiny and will change dramtically on the turn (which it did).

[spamuell]

Chson, your advice here is really bad.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is fine. I wouldn't raise 77 in a low limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? You probably have the best hand, there's dead money in the pot, you want to buy the button or improve your position.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop, you should've checked. Your edge is tiny and will change dramtically on the turn (which it did).

[/ QUOTE ]

How will you know whether your edge has changed for better or worse on the turn if an overcard falls? There are 7 that can and your opponent can only have at most two of them.

More importantly, if your opponent does hold two overcards to your 7s, you are better than a 3:1 favourite on the flop(see http://twodimes.net/h/?z=493680).

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
Chson, your advice here is really bad.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is fine. I wouldn't raise 77 in a low limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? You probably have the best hand, there's dead money in the pot, you want to buy the button or improve your position.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop, you should've checked. Your edge is tiny and will change dramtically on the turn (which it did).

[/ QUOTE ]

How will you know whether your edge has changed for better or worse on the turn if an overcard falls? There are 7 that can and your opponent can only have at most two of them.

More importantly, if your opponent does hold two overcards to your 7s, you are better than a 3:1 favourite on the flop(see http://twodimes.net/h/?z=493680).

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising or calling pre-flop with 77 is a matter of personal preference. I'm sure the EV in the long run is very similar.

On the flop, you're much less than 3:1 favorite since there's several players in the pot and therefore 2+ high cards. Waiting until the turn to bet/raise if a safe card falls also would make gutshots and even OESDs incorrect to call. This wouldn't be the case on the flop.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising or calling pre-flop with 77 is a matter of personal preference. I'm sure the EV in the long run is very similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rubbish. People say this far too much on these boards. Every time we talk about something and someone is wrong they're like "it's close", or "you don't give up much", or "it depends on your playing style", or "it can't be that wrong". Raising is the best play here and I will continue to think this until you give me a reason other than "it's close".

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, you're much less than 3:1 favorite since there's several players in the pot and therefore 2+ high cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but you'll be getting 3:1 on your money if they all call and the absolute worst situation which is pretty unlikely (provided that no one has a 4) is that they all hold three seperate overcards, and you still win nearly a third of the time. Getting 3:1 on your money, this is a very nice overlay (and remember, this is the worst situation).

[ QUOTE ]
Waiting until the turn to bet/raise if a safe card falls also would make gutshots and even OESDs incorrect to call. This wouldn't be the case on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are both overcards and gutshots/oesds out there, which cards are "safe cards"?

Lee? Is that you?

[Rico Suave]

Chson:

[ QUOTE ]
Raising or calling pre-flop with 77 is a matter of personal preference. I'm sure the EV in the long run is very similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you are using a standard chart or formula to determine your preflop play without taking taking into consideration the given situation! Sure, if 4 people limp and you are on the button with 77, limping and raising are both reasonable. Or if it is folded to you in UTG+2, raising or limping are both reasonable.

But here, hero is 2 off the button and it is folded to him. Raising is clearly superior to limping.

--Rico

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising or calling pre-flop with 77 is a matter of personal preference. I'm sure the EV in the long run is very similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rubbish. People say this far too much on these boards. Every time we talk about something and someone is wrong they're like "it's close", or "you don't give up much", or "it depends on your playing style", or "it can't be that wrong". Raising is the best play here and I will continue to think this until you give me a reason other than "it's close".

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, you're much less than 3:1 favorite since there's several players in the pot and therefore 2+ high cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but you'll be getting 3:1 on your money if they all call and the absolute worst situation which is pretty unlikely (provided that no one has a 4) is that they all hold three seperate overcards, and you still win nearly a third of the time. Getting 3:1 on your money, this is a very nice overlay (and remember, this is the worst situation).

[ QUOTE ]
Waiting until the turn to bet/raise if a safe card falls also would make gutshots and even OESDs incorrect to call. This wouldn't be the case on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there are both overcards and gutshots/oesds out there, which cards are "safe cards"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising with 77's is a recipe for disaster in low limit games unless you're on the button and the blinds are tight. If you don't understand this then you're probably a LAG.

I never said this was a great hand. Your edge will either increase of decrease immensely on the turn since 70% of the deck can cripple you. This play I'm recommending comes straight out of SSH.

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
Chson:

[ QUOTE ]
Raising or calling pre-flop with 77 is a matter of personal preference. I'm sure the EV in the long run is very similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you are using a standard chart or formula to determine your preflop play without taking taking into consideration the given situation! Sure, if 4 people limp and you are on the button with 77, limping and raising are both reasonable. Or if it is folded to you in UTG+2, raising or limping are both reasonable.

But here, hero is 2 off the button and it is folded to him. Raising is clearly superior to limping.

--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at Party 2/4. At Pokerstars 2/4 then yes the raise would be the right play.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Not at Party 2/4. At Pokerstars 2/4 then yes the raise would be the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I suppose you're giving me a little to work with now. So raising 77 first in from MP3 is better in a tight game than a loose one? Why? If this is the case, does this necessarily mean that it's -EV to raise it in a loose game? Is it +EV but limping is more +EV? I have outlined why I think raising is significantly better than limping and all you're still just giving me excuses and avoiding the question. I'm perfectly willing to accept that limping might be an acceptable option if you just tell me why.

[ErrantNight]

because what you gain in position is not made up for by the times you'll get called down by overcards that hit. raising doesn't protect your hand, and position doesn't help that much here.

don't have time to talk it all out, but it's PRIMARILY (but not exclusively) a speculative hand... now what reasons would you have for raising a speculative hand like this in a loose game but NOT in a tight game? and why is this directly opposed to attempting to steal the blinds?

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
now what reasons would you have for raising... this in a loose game but NOT in a tight game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot equity. Up against random hands which have put dead money in the pot already, they might fold, they might call with hands that you are ahead of or even dominate (yes, they could also have hands which dominate you, both of these situations are fairly unlikely but you will probably win more if you dominate them than vice versa due to your post-flop outplayal).

You will also sometimes buy the button or buy the CO, buy the button on the flop and win on the turn. Anyway, you can win the hand without having the button, your pre-flop raise means you need to take it down less with a flop bet for betting the flop to be +EV and you're going to bed the flop a very large amount of the time. Raising also makes the hand easier to play post-flop (because you're likely to be against less opponents) certainly without giving up equity and probably gaining it.

[ QUOTE ]
why is this directly opposed to attempting to steal the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't. Just because the game is loose it doesn't mean that no one folds ever (and if it did then you would certainly want to raise).

[daveymck]

I am pretty tight but in this situation you have to open raise you want to play this hand heads up if possible but with the least callers possible, limping encourages those behind to limp as well and gives the bb a free flop with whatever crap he has.

In this situation your hand has a good chance of winning unimproved (if you get heads up or against the blinds).

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

This play I'm recommending comes straight out of SSH.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't.

Mr Miller himself made some posts on this very forum shortly after SSH appeared, clarifying that this "not raising" play is just that: a "not raising" play. What it is not, is a "not betting" play. You need to make sure a bet goes in.

Guy.

[nepenthe]

If you do decide to play this hand from MP3, you have to raise preflop when it's folded to you.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

If you do decide to play this hand from MP3, you have to raise preflop when it's folded to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes! I'm so glad that you actually advocated a raise. Now the question, would you play this hand from MP3?

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
But here, hero is 2 off the button and it is folded to him. Raising is clearly superior to limping.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say folding is also clearly superior to limping here. But I'd rather raise.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say folding is also clearly superior to limping here. But I'd rather raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not agree with this at all. Although raising is the superior play, folding is by far 3rd in my opinion.

As for the post flop play, I beleive you played it right.

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes! I'm so glad that you actually advocated a raise. Now the question, would you play this hand from MP3?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would definitely not fold 77 in MP3. Limping is undesirable as this is clearly an open raise. If you knock a few people out, you definitely have a chance to win unimproved. There's dead money in the pot. You could buy the button. Etc, etc.

I don't see what all the fuss is about, isn't this standard play?

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't see what all the fuss is about, isn't this standard play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so, but nepenthe seems to be my poker opposite (which means congrats on your recent 75BB upstreak nepenthe).

[daveymck]

From those late positions I would say that it is almost always correct to open raise with a hand you were planning to call with (within reason)

[MrHorace]

All,
I posted a similar situation a couple days ago, but can't seem to get a reference to the URL post.[See 77 Hand... by MrHorace if interested] (Newbie issue I'm sure). Anyway, thanks so much for everyone's good input. I understand, reasoning for Hero to raise preflop, but not sure I agree, yet.
In my case, the flop was 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5? 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif so I'm drawing to the set, and the straight. Also, there wasn't as much raising going on in my hand.

The question I have is, like zero, is the turn fold correct? What if he had 8 or 9 BB vs. 6 BB?

For me, I folded, thinking it was the best move. And whacko the river comes a 7! Except for not raising preflop, I was MP1 or 2, so maybe okay for me. I think I played okay, but??
thanks,

[Nick709]

Think about your cards AND your position, you should almost never open limp from MP3, CO, or Button. Maybe MP2 but it's close.

[Nick709]

Hi MrHorace,
I'm sorry but I do not understand your post at all, please clarify.

I would also like to state that I am of the opinion that when you open the action in MP3 it's pump it or dump it time. Someone please convince me otherwise I see no case for limping and the only arguments I have heard for it pushes it towards a fold.

[MrHorace]

Hi Nick,
Sorry for the confusion on my post. I'd had this similar situation, that I made a post on, which I referred to in my message. For some reason, I can't seem to copy URL's into posts anymore to reference another post. Not sure if me or not.

I'm trying to understand 2 things:
1. Should one even play 77 from MP/2 or 3 say, when two others have called? And if I do play, I want to raise according to you, but I'm not sure I agree on this.

2. The second part of my question had to deal with, when would it have been correct for hero to call, that is how many big bets in the pot?

Sorry for the confusion on the post.
David

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Waiting until the turn to bet/raise if a safe card falls also would make gutshots and even OESDs incorrect to call

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did this "wait until the turn to bet" idea come from? I just don't get it. If I'm in the BB with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and the flop is 443, none of my suits, I'm not happy about it.

So now someone bets into the preflop raiser, I don't like my overcards at all. So if the preflop raiser has AK, by betting my 77, I might get some overcards to fold on the flop, saving myself the whole pot if the turn is a 10, and the river is a 2.

Betting is the right play