Defining "outplay."

Here's a paraphrased excerpt from a recent Card Player article. The writer was on the button with 8-7 and considered raising against the blinds. He listed some of the reasons for raising and among them was: "... a favorable board might give me the chance to outplay my [opponents]."


Is "outplay" a synonym for "bluff?" Is that the standard usage now?


This is yet another word I never use because let's say the board comes A-K-Q and the blinds check and the button bets (after raising preflop) and the blinds have nothing and fold. Did anyone get outplayed? I don't think so. Reverse the situation, put the hero in the blind, and now the hero will be identically "outplayed" and fold to a flop bet by the button. So it's a tie.


Now, if one of the blinds reraises on the flop with nothing, and the button folds, that could be considered "outplaying" I suppose. But still something in the tone of that word bothers me because it gets used so often in situations where the hands nearly play themselves.


Tommy

Tommy,


I wonder if you combine the direction you are starting to take in your last paragraph with your ideas about "hierarchy of fear" if you might come closer to an understanding. If I fear you and you make tactical decisions that make me act differently than if I could see your holding, perhaps you have outplayed me. Not sure that the term has much meaning myself, but I think if it does it centers on getting people to make FTOP type mistakes in a hand.


From a strictly usage perspective I would say it means "I am better than him and want to mix it up with him because I think he fears me and I can get him to make a mistake that I benefit from". (And usually--"hey, my hand's not so good and I need to rationalize being in this pot anyway").


KJS

outplay means that you don't care who has which hand or which hand flops, you can beat him with more hands than he can beat you with.


i outplay people all the time, and get outplayed. i get outplayed when he is able to convince me that he has a hand which is "playing itself."


every outplayer is scared to death of a real hand. outplay means i am more likley to tell whether he has nothing than he if i have nothing... you get it, not just bluffing, a combination of representing and reading.


i think outplaying is knowing when to drop, meaning he calls me if i have the winner, but i fold if he has the winner.


outplaying may be as simple as convincing him i have nothing, i am bluffing, then if he bets a no-draw board, he must have nothing, or he would slow down to let me draw a second-best or induce me to bluff.


ku

Outplaying someone, to me, means playing better than he (him?).

You win more from him than he would have had the hands been reversed. You lose less to him than he would have lost to you had the hands been reversed.


I do think a lot of times people use the word as a synonym (or euphemism) for bluff or semi-bluff. They also use it as a synonym for aggressive betting. It's hard to outplay someone by checking along.


I remember losing the maximum on a hand where my opponent, a better player than I am, had a bigger pocket pair than I did. The way he played convinced me had A-K or A-Q and no pair. When the hand was over I smiled and told him "you had better cards and you outplayed me," which was true. So outplay doesn't always mean bluff.

"Outplaying someone, to me, means ...You win more from him than he would have had the hands been reversed. You lose less to him than he would have lost to you had the hands been reversed."


That's exactly how I would define it as well.


"They also use it as a synonym for aggressive betting. It's hard to outplay someone by checking along."


Not so! I have AA, you have KK. I limp, you raise, I reraise, you call. Now I fear that you might put you on aces, so I check the 2-2-2 flop to give you a chance to catch up and goof up. But you check behind. I trap again on the turn, and you check again. I bet the river, you call. I got outplayed, right?


By your definition, I think more outplaying plays are checks than bets or raises. Or maybe that's just true for me because I so often start with the worst hand. :-)


Tommy

KJS,


Great points. Especially this one:


(And usually--"hey, my hand's not so good and I need to rationalize being in this pot anyway").

Perhaps the author is refering to the fact that 87s offers many opportunities for reasonable semi-bluff-bets on the flop since this hand has a propensity for floping draws. The opponent with Jack high is "outplayed" when he folds his marginal hand on the flop.


- Louie

I've never heard anyone say, "I outplayed him" when they checked pocket kings on the flop and the turn. I do hear them say it when they 3-bet pre-flop with K-Q, raise a flop of J-9-x, bet the turn when a blank comes, and catch a Q to beat their opponent's A-J on the river.


While a fold or a check with a worse hand than one's opponent is included in the definition you and I agree upon, the way the word "outplay" is generally used refers to aggressive betting, usually as a semi-bluff.

Tommy,


Good points by all posters. Was the 8-7 suited? Doesn't really matter. I agree that "outplaying" my opponents means winning more AND losing less with the same hands over time. Its the "losing less" part that took slightly longer to sink in for me in terms of "outplaying" my opponents. This can often mean just simply not playing/stealing with such hands(definately offsuit, in this case, and even sometimes suited against all but the tighter players). A winning player, is constantly "outplaying" most of his opponents on a consistant basis (but not necessarily every single hand).


Mike

Tommy,


I remember in an earlier post of yours (a few weeks ago) you commented that poker is a game of two situations. You were using this analogy describing being in/out of position with a weak ace. Your point was that if you could lay it down on the river, every time (correctly), and your opponent didn't when he was in the same situation as you were, you'd be "gaining" one BB every time.


I think this is what he was referring to when he used the word "outplay". JMHO.

>>3-bet pre-flop with K-Q, raise a flop of J-9-x, bet the turn when a blank comes, and catch a Q to beat their opponent's A-J on the river. <<


This seems less like outplaying and more like getting lucky. If the Q hadn't hit the river and he bet and the opponent folded, THAT would seem like outplaying someone to me.


I really like this thread because this "outplay" concept seems to come up in a lot of books. It reminds me of my college math classes when going through a long and involved proof. Suddenly, the teacher would put Q.E.D. on the board and turn around with a self satisfied look on his face. I needed a few more steps before I was in a QED state. He outplayed me.

It's making more correct decisions than your opponent. Or, put another way, you make less mistakes than your opponent and as we know from Sklansky, there are only 8 types of mistakes you can make in poker.


Outplaying is definitely not just bluffing out your opponent. You could lose a pot and yet, it could be said that you outplayed your opponent (for example, if the roles were reversed, he would have lost a lot more than you did).

``I really like this thread because this "outplay" concept seems to come up in a lot of books. It reminds me of my college math classes when


going through a long and involved proof. Suddenly, the teacher would put Q.E.D. on the board and turn around with a self satisfied look on his


face. I needed a few more steps before I was in a QED state. He outplayed me. ''


It could be a bluff.


Dirk

I think andy was being sarcastic/witty. The player did get lucky, but usually such a player crows about how well he played.


Pat