44 - trying to isolate a laggy preflop raiser.

[bisonbison]

MP2 is laggro. 60% in, 15% raise, aggro postflop. Button is very loose. BB is semi-loose.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

More to come...

[amerksmann22]

I think that isw the standard and correct play...

You bet and let him raise and you can trim the field.
You need to just call and then lead into him again if a safe card hits the turn though. Is this the line that most players take here?!

[amerksmann22]

byw, if he raises and there are cold-callers or re-raises you need to proceed very carefully

[BigEndian]

I don't like this limp bison. My reasoning is that unless everyone behind the lagish player is passive and clueless, you will often enough end up playing for 3-bets. You might argue that you can raise expecting the lag to 3-bet and do your isolation for you, but I think you should bide your time until another hand.

Flop is fairly standard and I might 3-bet if it comes back to me heads-up with the lag - depending on what I've seen of his play and what he might think of you.

Now the conundrum, Button and SB are loose, so how do you play it when one or both of them call and over cards start falling from the sky? Which is another reason I prefer to save my BB and wait until another spot to take advantage of the lag.

- Jim

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that isw the standard and correct play...

You bet and let him raise and you can trim the field.
You need to just call and then lead into him again if a safe card hits the turn though.

[/ QUOTE ]

What constitutes a safe card when one is holding 44?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this limp bison. My reasoning is that unless everyone behind the lagish player is passive and clueless, you will often enough end up playing for 3-bets. You might argue that you can raise expecting the lag to 3-bet and do your isolation for you, but I think you should bide your time until another hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

This was my initial reaction. Indeed, is 44 really a good hand with which to openlimp from MP1 with an aggro to your direct left?

[bisonbison]

Yeah, it was a bit of a loose, tilty limp. But anyhoo:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Button folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks with the intention of calling...

[chesspain]

Bison,

After the PF raiser raises you on that drawless flop and then bets the turn, you check the river with the plan of calling? Since he obviously doesn't have a pair lower than you have, do you think he would bet the turn and then bet the river again with just overcards? If so, what kind of hand do you think he's putting you on?

[bisonbison]

Chess, my play was entirely dependent on my read of him as a heavy lag: "60% in, 15% raise, aggro postflop"

[Monty Cantsin]

Mission accomplished?

/mc

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Chess, my play was entirely dependent on my read of him as a heavy lag: "60% in, 15% raise, aggro postflop"

[/ QUOTE ]

Well O.K then...although I would have to see him as being very aggro and/or fairly stupid to think that he would think that he would be able to win this pot by betting the river with A-high or worse.

[Nate tha' Great]

I would go ahead and 3-bet once you get it heads up. If he caps, just call down, unless you really don't like the cards that come off. Otherwise you should lead the turn and the river.

[sthief09]

*yawn*

[sthief09]

check-raise the river /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
check-raise the river

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not serious are you? (And yes, I deliberately omitted the emoticons).

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
check-raise the river /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

(The more times these emoticons are repeated in Bison's thread, the better.)

If LAG is the kind who bets the river with A or K-high rather than taking the free showdown because he's unlikely to get called by a worse hand, and he's also the kind who won't 3-bet with those hands or anything worse than a full house here, I like this move. Doesn't seem that likely but I appreciate your recent very aggressive suggestions.

[sthief09]

The emoticons backfired there, because I am indeed serious about check-raising.

[GuyOnTilt]

Fold preflop. Like, really fold preflop.

3-bet the flop once it's headsup and continue leading until he shows resistance, i.e. if he 4-bets the flop or raises any other street. After that, call down.

GoT

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I am indeed serious about check-raising.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly certain CRing is the worst possible river play. Only a better hand will call it.

[bisonbison]

I'm fairly certain CRing is the worst possible river play. Only a better hand will call it.

This isn't true, but I still think c/ring isn't good.

By the by, MP2 shows AJs and my hand is good. On the flop, I felt like if I could get it heads-up I was gonna win pretty often, but I couldn't figure out how to play it.

[sthief09]

I guarantee A-high calls the c/r

and besides, poker isn't about winning money. it's about doing ridiculous things to make your opponents look bad.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

and besides, poker isn't about winning money. it's about doing ridiculous things to make your opponents look bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

If only the character limit for your location was a little higher.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee A-high calls the c/r

[/ QUOTE ]

Er...can't say I agree with that. Yet...

[ QUOTE ]
and besides, poker isn't about winning money. it's about doing ridiculous things to make your opponents look bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

...you are wise beyond your years.

p.s. - 'Ima pooh-bah!

[Barry]

Bison you have it all backwards.

1st 44 isn't a great hand to isolate a LAG with, 2nd to isolate a LAG you need to act behind him. If the other folks are at all thinking players, they're going to cold call his raise with a much wider array of hands, and you're going to end up playing this hand multi-way out of position. So if you really feel the need to try this, pick a better hand, raise with it, let him 3 bet to isolate himself.

I understand what you are trying to do on the flop, but again, the folks behind the LAG are going to give his raises no respect.

Just muck this PF and wait for the next hand.

[AceHigh]

There have to be better hands and situations to isolate a LAG player. Fold preflop.