View Full Version : The Perfect Example of Tilting Out...
jwvdcw
09-07-2004, 10:50 PM
what happened?
[ QUOTE ]
what happened?
[/ QUOTE ]
he got aces cracked then couldn't lay down A,10 to Raymer's flopped set. After his Aces got cracked, he was banging on the table and you could just tell he was going to blow out.
eastbay
09-07-2004, 10:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what happened?
[/ QUOTE ]
he got aces cracked then couldn't lay down A,10 to Raymer's flopped set. After his Aces got cracked, he was banging on the table and you could just tell he was going to blow out.
[/ QUOTE ]
As tilted as he was "couldn't lay down to Raymer's set" is kind of an absurd accusation. He was the first to make any action, and he moved in. I don't remember the chip amounts but it didn't seem like a crazy play to me.
What was he supposed to do, catch his pair of aces and then check-fold?
eastbay
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what happened?
[/ QUOTE ]
he got aces cracked then couldn't lay down A,10 to Raymer's flopped set. After his Aces got cracked, he was banging on the table and you could just tell he was going to blow out.
[/ QUOTE ]
As tilted as he was "couldn't lay down to Raymer's set" is kind of an absurd accusation. He was the first to make any action, and he moved in. I don't remember the chip amounts but it didn't seem like a crazy play to me.
What was he supposed to do, catch his pair of aces and then check-fold?
eastbay
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.
BWebb
09-07-2004, 11:01 PM
How do you know when that happened compared to the other hand? I don't think Raymer was even at the table when his aces got cracked. It's editing, that could have been 6 hours apart.
[ QUOTE ]
How do you know when that happened compared to the other hand? I don't think Raymer was even at the table when his aces got cracked. It's editing, that could have been 6 hours apart.
[/ QUOTE ]
He was not and it could have been, but it was not.
BWebb
09-07-2004, 11:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you know when that happened compared to the other hand? I don't think Raymer was even at the table when his aces got cracked. It's editing, that could have been 6 hours apart.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you know this how?
He was not and it could have been, but it was not.
[/ QUOTE ]
pokerraja
09-07-2004, 11:06 PM
Ummm, Gavin pushed, raymer called. Neither fold there. That was a routine poker beat.
pokerraja
09-07-2004, 11:06 PM
Ummm, Gavin pushed, raymer called. Neither fold there. That was a routine poker beat.
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, Gavin pushed, raymer called. Neither fold there. That was a routine poker beat.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm it's Davin and it's not a beat, he got his money in with the worst hand, it's a bad play/read.
Greg (FossilMan)
09-11-2004, 11:54 PM
Here's how I recall the hand. Davin raised preflop, normal-sized raise, in relatively early position. I called with 66 sitting right behind him.
Flop was A6? (I don't recall the other card, but it was smaller than a T, and I don't remember there being any flush draws out). Davin made a bet of roughly the pot size, or a bit less. I raised about triple his bet. He went into thinking mode for quite a long time, and then announced all-in. This all-in bet was for at least double the pot, maybe triple. I called very quickly. He showed AT, picked up some outs on the turn when a 4th spade hit, and then missed the river.
After he was out of earshot, a few people at the table remarked about him "giving away" a million dollars worth of chips. I think it was pretty clear to many of us that he had the worst hand on the flop, and by that I mean before either of us had turned over our cards.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for your comments Greg, do you happen to know how soon after Davin got his aces cracked that this hand occured?
Hard to tell from ESPN's coverage since they don't often discuss what the blinds and antes are.
Rick Nebiolo
09-12-2004, 03:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hard to tell from ESPN's coverage since they don't often discuss what the blinds and antes are.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a real drawback to the ESPN coverage. Maybe if I got a giant TV and digital cable I could read and count the chips, but this and the WPT is about the only TV I watch so I stick with my little 25" /images/graemlins/wink.gif.
I am starting to get a kick out of Norm Chad's wisecracks though. Anyway, this Tuesday's show (somebody tapes it for me so I still don't need cable) was lots of fun. Let's hope the last show is four hours for the final eighteen.
~ Rick
Scooterdoo
09-12-2004, 10:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think it was pretty clear to many of us that he had the worst hand on the flop, and by that I mean before either of us had turned over our cards.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's interesting that you say that, Greg. Based on the limited hands they showed of yours, it would appear to me that he was very possibly a head here. You had showed yourself to be very aggressive and if you had a A-highcard or most wired pairs you would have likely raised preflop to test the strength of your opponent's hand. What's more, we had seen many times when you sensed weakness on a flop bet you came over the top of your opponent (although I guess it would have been hard for players at the table to know this <G>). I guess you could have AJo or a pair lower than say 8's (which you did) which would have made your preflop call reasonable, but it certainly wouldn't have been unusual for you to try to come over the top of your opponent with a draw, middle pair or even nothing if you sensed weakness. He went with his gut, which was wrong, but I can easily see making the same read given the situation. Are you certain that if you were in his shoes against an aggressive opponent like you, that you would have layed down your AT?
Greg (FossilMan)
09-14-2004, 04:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's interesting that you say that, Greg. Based on the limited hands they showed of yours, it would appear to me that he was very possibly a head here.
[/ QUOTE ]
"limited" is the key word. I was not reraising people continually, and actually I called many more raises than I reraised. Also, it was not common for me to put a LOT of chips into a pot without having a big hand. Of course, when I do so, that's the hand that tends to get shown on TV.
[ QUOTE ]
You had showed yourself to be very aggressive and if you had a A-highcard or most wired pairs you would have likely raised preflop to test the strength of your opponent's hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the TV coverage. While it's true I very well might have done this, it's also quite possible I would just call and see the flop instead.
[ QUOTE ]
What's more, ... it certainly wouldn't have been unusual for you to try to come over the top of your opponent with a draw, middle pair or even nothing if you sensed weakness.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, it would not have been unusual. But it also wouldn't have been "usual" either. Both were possible.
[ QUOTE ]
He went with his gut, which was wrong, but I can easily see making the same read given the situation. Are you certain that if you were in his shoes against an aggressive opponent like you, that you would have layed down your AT?
[/ QUOTE ]
Anything's possible. But after he was out of earshot, I was asked by multiple players why I'm so lucky about having players "just give me" their chips.
The key to this hand is Davin's all-in reraise. It's a bad bet. If I'm ahead, the only way he's going to come out ahead is if I fold AJ or AQ (or AT). I'd not likely fold AK, nor any two-pair or set hand. On the other hand, if he just calls, maybe I'll "bluff" again on the turn, and he can win chips from A9 or other worse hands (and since there were no real draws on the board, it's not likely that he's giving me a free card where I have more than 2-5 outs).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Moovyz
09-14-2004, 04:44 PM
Quote:
"The key to this hand is Davin's all-in reraise. It's a bad bet."
That IS the key. Greg's raise tells the guy he's probably behind, making an all-in raise a non-option. Greg most likely holds 1. a bigger ace, or 2. A,rag but hit 2 pair or 3. a set. So if he then thinks that calling is an option and he misses spiking a come-from-behind ace or 10 on the turn, he faces a possible all-in check, call on the turn. That makes calling the raise on the flop a non-option. Therefore, if you can't raise, and can't call... you fold.
I think he knew he was behind but because of cracked aces, his judgement was a bit off and he hoped to move Greg off by being aggressive. I really would like to know how soon after the aces got cracked that this happened. I seems to be very soon after, just by Davin's reaction.
srblan
09-14-2004, 05:35 PM
or Vahedi WSOP 2003...
[ QUOTE ]
or Vahedi WSOP 2003...
[/ QUOTE ]
i don't know if that was so much tilting out as it was typical Vahedi play without cards.
Beavis68
09-14-2004, 07:01 PM
Wanna talk about a blow-up? What about Thor Hansen? All in with just AK on a flop with no draws, then the next hand all in with KK on an A high flop - chip leader to felt in two hands. And these weren't edited together they were back-to-back
srblan
09-14-2004, 07:16 PM
The major mistake that I saw Vahedi make was saying "You laid down a hand to him last time..." At that point, my chips would have been in the center before he finished the thought...
Iconoclastic
09-19-2004, 12:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
"The key to this hand is Davin's all-in reraise. It's a bad bet."
That IS the key. Greg's raise tells the guy he's probably behind, making an all-in raise a non-option. Greg most likely holds 1. a bigger ace, or 2. A,rag but hit 2 pair or 3. a set. So if he then thinks that calling is an option and he misses spiking a come-from-behind ace or 10 on the turn, he faces a possible all-in check, call on the turn. That makes calling the raise on the flop a non-option. Therefore, if you can't raise, and can't call... you fold.
I think he knew he was behind but because of cracked aces, his judgement was a bit off and he hoped to move Greg off by being aggressive. I really would like to know how soon after the aces got cracked that this happened. I seems to be very soon after, just by Davin's reaction.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with the assessment that Greg was probably holding a better hand. There was just as good a chance of him holding either a nonset PP or maybe even a King high.
Davin might have thought that Greg was trying to push him off the pot with the bigger stack, thinking that Greg thought that Davin didn't have an Ace but instead a PP. So Davin might have been reraising a perceived bluff.
Although personally, I would have check-raised the flop and folded to a reraise. But Davin wanted to play aggressively and it was boom or bust. It's bad to lose a All-in bet, but it's also bad to let a bigger stack push you around. It's damned if you do damned if you don't.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.