How would you play this from the SB...

[swimfan]

Stars $20+2 NL
Blinds are 100/200

Stack sizes of relevant players:
CO: 2700
Button: 3200
SB (Me): 1600
BB: 5300

Been at the table since start of tourney, CO and Button are ordinary players, BB is aggressive bordering on overly aggressive pre-flop, raises a wide array of hands.

Folded to CO who limps. Button limps along. I have a pair of 2's. I pause for a little and decide to complete. BB raises to 600. CO and Button calls. I raise all-in, hoping/praying for two things - BB goes all-in and has overcards. BB goes all-in, CO and button fold. BB has AJs, my 2s hold up. I get berated on the table chat.

My questions:
* Does anyone move in after a CO and button limp in this spot?
* After the BB raises and CO and button call along, is my all-in raise correct or is a fold in order?
* If BB wasn't such an aggressive pre-flop raiser, is a fold more in order pre-flop or is the all-in correct considering the overlay if CO and button fold?

[GrinningBuddha]

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My questions:
* Does anyone move in after a CO and button limp in this spot?


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In this spot? Yes. With your cards? No.

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* After the BB raises and CO and button call along, is my all-in raise correct or is a fold in order?


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It's a good play to attempt to isolate the BB, but doing it with 22 is a big risk. You are at best a tiny favorite, though the dead money from CO and button might make it marginal. I'd much rather do it with 88+ or AQ+.

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* If BB wasn't such an aggressive pre-flop raiser, is a fold more in order pre-flop or is the all-in correct considering the overlay if CO and button fold?

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I'll toss in 100 here in order to try and double up with a set, sure. But you must be reasonably certain you won't be facing a raise from the BB, yes. I don't like an all-in here given your stack. You can afford to wait a bit longer for a better hot/cold hand.

[willie]

fold to the reraise.

but yeah i'd try to limp it, easy hand to play postflop at least.

[SossMan]

I would have pushed after the limps.

I would have certainly pushed after the reraise. You can count on BB RR'ing to isolate you, and that gives you sufficient overlay to take a coin flip (assuming BB isolates...if he doesn't, then you pray that both of them call, so you get a nice payday for a set).
You don't have enough chips to get cute. Go ahead and push the first time and take down a pot that is 40% of your stack most of the time.

[SossMan]

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fold to the reraise.


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this is horrible advice. On just a call, he's getting (600+600+600+200= 2000:400 or 5:1. That's enough to flop a set right there. If he pushes and can isolate himself w/ the BB, he has the right odds for a CF.

[gergery]

I move in after CO and button limp (or rather, I know I should, and I hope I have the balls to do so). Ordinary players tend not to limp with hands they feel they can call an all-in with. This is likely to pick you up 700, or at minimum get you heads up.

After BB raises and CO & button call, then I would probably fold. There is now 2000 in the pot, and your raise is only 1000, so you know BB is coming in for sure and quite possibly the other two when you would be in bad shape. Additionally, the pot is now big, your fold closes the action and with that much money in the pot there is a decent chance you get to move up to 3rd free of charge if someone busts.

If you could confidently put BB on decent overcards here then raising is good, as you can reasonably suspect a loose player will go all-in to isolate, which gets you heads up as a slight favorite – the ideal scenario.

I would not fold this preflop. Calling 100 when you can win 1500 with a set is better than folding, if BB will just check. But raising all-in to win 700 right now is probably better.

--Greg

[gergery]

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fold to the reraise.


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this is horrible advice. On just a call, he's getting (600+600+600+200= 2000:400 or 5:1. That's enough to flop a set right there. If he pushes and can isolate himself w/ the BB, he has the right odds for a CF.

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I agree with this and want to change my weak tight advice on folding it.

[swimfan]

Thanks for the advice. Part of me wanted to push the first go around, which caused the hesitation. I changed my mind and decided to play for set value. Once the BB raised the play kind of unfolded from there, wanted to confirm that was the right line. Thanks again.

[swimfan]

Thanks for the advice and other reply. Once the CO and button came along, was a bit nervous, then looked at the BB's stack and considered his aggression, as well as wanting to make a move there instead of getting strung along the tourney as a SS. I also didn't realize at the time I'd be getting odds to at least call as Soss indicates, which helped answer my third question. Thanks again!

[SossMan]

no prob

[gergery]

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fold to the reraise.


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this is horrible advice. On just a call, he's getting (600+600+600+200= 2000:400 or 5:1. That's enough to flop a set right there. If he pushes and can isolate himself w/ the BB, he has the right odds for a CF.

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You know, I was thinking about this further, and I don’t think its horrible advice – its actually a lot closer than you think.

After you complete, you have 1400 left. You’re faced with needing to call 400 to win the 2000 in the pot, but, if you hit your set, you can only win another 1000 max from any one other player because that’s all you have left in your stack. You stack limits your implied odds. That means your 400 can win the 2000 in the pot plus another 1000 or 3000k, which is exactly 7.5 to 1 odds. So your call is chipEV neutral here. Toss in some more value if more than one player gets his chips in when you flop the set (which seems likely), but take away some value because sets don’t always win when players like their hand enough to put more chips in on flop.

However, if you can push and isolate vs. overcards, that would clearly be higher EV than trying to flop a set with the pot so big now. Folding would still be slightly chipEV- here, but might be Cash EV+ if someone busts.

If you look at Cash EV, winning and getting a ton of chips puts you as chip leader with great EV for top places, while folding has a decent chance to moving you into 3rd spot since so many chips in the middle now and 3 players going for it. But the top places tend to have disproportionately more money, its usually worth gambling for them.

Net, I think there are reasonable arguments for all options: folding, calling, pushing depending on the table. And I’ll push if I think I can isolate, and call if I can’t, as default choice.

[37offsuit]

You likely got berated because one of the other players would have won this hand had you not pushed and then had the BB isolate you. I'm guessing one or both of them had a medium pair.

Both you and the BB were correct in your play in my opinion. The two limpers are the ones who misplayed the hand and that is what gave you the odds to push, and the BB's isolation play with AJ. They should have recognized the possibility that calling another 400 was going to pot commit you so it was likely that this exact scenario might play out.

[Synth]

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My questions:
* Does anyone move in after a CO and button limp in this spot?

In this spot? Yes. With your cards? No.

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What? You have 8 BB's left and are four handed. You got an overly aggressive BB which most likely you're a slight favourite over and two players who limped plus you got odds.

I'm with the push crowd here.

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I'd much rather do it with 88+ or AQ+.

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So if you held AJs, AJo, 66, 44, 77, ATs, etc, you would fold or just call in this situation?

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fold to the reraise.

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Is there a weak tight police......? Horrible advice!

- Synth

[SossMan]

You are assuming you need a set to win. Don't get me wrong, I don't like a call here, but it is much better than a fold (to the reraise).