starting mistakes

I am new to hold em...been playing less than a year in low limit games. I have been reading WLL, HPFAP, theory of poker, and inside the poker mind. I have been coming away from the table a winner for the most part but have questions about starting hands.


I am playing a very tight and unimaginative game due to my lack of experience. I feel I am playing like a rock. My problems lie in the ability to play the lower grouped hands. Early position with stuff like Q9s or 76s or middle with J8s, etc. Every time I play these it doesn't feel right and I end up losing money on these hands unless of course I make a straight...if I make top pair, 9's with the Q9s for example it seems like it always gets beaten on later rounds.


I realize that each starting hand should be played according to the situation and I feel like I'm playing these in situations that warrant their play ...I just can't figure how to win with them....Maybe I just need more experience or maybe I really don't understand the situations they can be played in...


If someone has any advice on how to get these few more hands into my game I would appreciate it.


Thanks

allan

Hi Allen: I'm pretty much in the same boat being a recent convert to Hold'Em.


Playing like a rock I got tired of being obvious and getting bluffed with junk; that's what bugged me, not so much the desire to be more imaginative


(as long as I won I could care less if I was straight out of paragraph 12 page 89 in HPFAP, or whatever...)


Searching for answers I got caught in the "Don't try fancy plays in low limit" school of thought--which I admit made sense; I mean Q9s in early position, flop a pair of 9's and wonder why you lose?


I know HPFAP reccommends 76s once in a blue moon, But friends that played at $30-60 games assured me that even in these supposedly sophisticated tight/agressive games


(ok.general asuumption #1 , in case anyone missed it; low limit is for calling stations and maniacs. Higher for the brilliant)


that they NEVER bothered to play 76s early, were more concerned about whether they should raise or limp with AK early and did quite allright for themselves as long as they stuck to fundamentals and the esoteric art of reading the opponents.


But a contrary opinion among my friends(?) in the $30-60 crowd


(Isn't it nice to have all this anecdotal data and nowhere to go?)


was that if they ever went back and condescended to play low limit, the premium trick to varying your play was to wait until the game became loose and full of family pots


(WHERE THE HELL IS THIS LLHE GAME FULL OF PASSIVE PLAYERS, ANYWAY?)


And then then go for the kill with Axs, Kxs or any pair in any position.


Okay, I'll remember that . . .


The most bizarre (or non-cliche depending on your point of view) answers came from two sources; a comp/sim (see my Q under New Starting hands..Again?) and from DR Scherer's book 'No Fold'em Hold'Em'-- A misnomer since he only devotes a chapter to the above mentioned passive/loose HE game and the rest of the book on how to play 97s and other small cards from almost any position in order to 'crack the rocks'


Sherer is primaraly a high stakes tournament player but he believes his ideas work just fine in LLHE.


Let me know, I haven't got the bankroll right now to go take double somersaults from the flying trapeze . . .


Good Luck.

({()}{}()(){}[]{}[{}]()([]({})()[({})()]{{}{}})[()(){[]()()}{}[]]([]))

If everyone has folded to you, consider your position as utg for this round. If you keep that in mind, it may help tremendously with playing lower ranking hands. This isn't exactly correct, but it should keep you both out of trouble.


Playing LL is a dull unimaginative game if you wish to win over the long term. The rest just comes with experience, imo

very tight you say. you have it all wrong. you play way too loose and need to read some advanced books to find out what to play in what positions and how to play hands after the flop. after a year the amount you pissed away experimenting could have bought you a decent car or a trip around the world. but its true as you say experience will help alot if you pay close attention and learn. but to try and learn just by experience is like trying to see how long you can live without water rather than just reading the facts.

"I feel I am playing like a rock. ... Early position with stuff like Q9s or 76s or middle with J8s, etc. Every time I play these..."


If you feel like a rock now, you're in for quite a shock when you actually become one. :-) That you'd even think about playing these hands up front qualifies you as a medium lose player at best.


"I just can't figure how to win with them...."


Easy. Play against those hands, not with them.


Tommy

I'm sorry, I realize I didn't make myself clear in the slightest bit, I don't play those kind of hands after seeing that they don't win. I am basically limiting myself to only the first 3 hand groups, as it seems even some of the group 4 hands seem very difficult to play in early position.


Sklansky states that in the right game, some group 5 hands can be added to your play in early position.


When is correct to play something like the Q9s from early position like it says is possible in HPFAP? Or is it just not? I've read the chapter over and over and don't understand what type of game this is a playable hand in.

The loose passive LLHE games are in Kansas City!

"When is correct to play something like the Q9s from early position like it says is possible in HPFAP? Or is it just not?"


I think it's just not.

I'll start by saying I like Tommy's advice. I wouldn't play those hands up front, and I have been in games where perhaps I could have.


Having said that, the time to play Q9s early is when the game is very loose and very passive. Loose because you need to be paid off well when the hand hits. Passive, because playing for two bets or more preflop will eliminate the profit which could be made post-flop (see book sections about implied and effective odds).


If you are in a game where you would not be surprised to find it raised before the flop, then DON'T play these hands (early or middle).


Eric

Allan,


Sometimes its difficult to incorporate more hands in your game especially from early position. For about two years, when I first started, I personally only played TT-AA, AK, AQ, from the first two seats. This served me well, and you will find you still get action in most games, until you hit middle limit. I experimented with just calling for a while but raising is certainly the better default. Is that optimal? No, but do your loosening in the last three seats, for now.


But I know you don't want hear that. The hands you can strongly consider loosening in early position are the pairs. Pairs like 88, 77, and even 66. In somewhat loose passive games you can add all the pairs. One reason for this is its hit a set (or a top straight draw maybe) or fold. Don't get tempted to sticking around without a set with the small pairs. This strategy keeps you out of trouble, as playing after the flop becomes easier. So miscalculating what might happen when you come in with a small pair can't kill you. Making sets is a good part of a poker player's win.


Playing all the Group 3 hands should be fine, the only troublesome (and somewhat overrated hand by S&M imo,) is JTs. Be careful with that one.


There are more hands you can add, but thats all I'll say for now.


Why do you want to add many more hands in early position?


Most of the profit in hold'em comes after the flop, and recognizing when you have a particularly good situation. Its alot easier to see that situation once others have acted.


Regards.

A couple of points on the hands you mentioned. Q9s, J8s and 76s are very different hands, although all should usually be mucked, especially J8s. Here are some exceptions:


(a) In early position in an extremely passive game (very little raising before and after the flop) when your opponents will pay you off if you hit the flop hard. J8s doesn't qualify, and you should probably never play any of these hands utg. If you have trouble playing well after the flop or if your opponents are tricky or aggressive, always muck. Your opponents must be terrible, and these hands won't win much here even under the best circumstances.


(b) Opening the pot with a raise in late position (actually just the button for 76s and J8s but as far out as two seats off the button for Q9s) when the opponents that haven't acted are capable of folding before the flop or on the flop. You want opponents that are fairly tight, reluctant to defend and cautious, and without much inclination to 3-bet your steal, or will passively pay you off if you hit the board with top pair or better but won't play mediocre hands aggressively. Look for a reasonable chance to pick up the blinds or opponents that you can outplay after the flop (i.e., they'll pay you but you won't pay them, or they'll put you on a big hand because you raised and fold on the flop). As you know, in many low limit games this situation almost never arises. When it does, either raise or fold.


(c) Late position after two or more loose callers with little chance of a raise behind you.


(d) In very loose games when the pot has been raised once when you're on the button and five or more callers are in, and the players yet to act aren't maniacs. You still prefer your opponents to play passively after the flop, as you'll usually need to get to the later streets cheaply.


(e) Calling or opening the pot for a raise in the small blind. Open-limping in the small blind isn't terrible because it provides cover for when you have a real hand, but you usually prefer to raise unless your opponent will react as if you've assaulted his manhood. Almost always muck these hands in the small blind if the pot has been raised as you will virtually never have the best hand before the flop and have worst position afterwards.


(f) Calling one raise in the big blind when your opponent is stealing or if it's a multiway pot with little or no chance of more raising.


Unless you have a good chance of picking up the pot for one bet, you want to hit the flop fairly hard before investing more dough (i.e., usually muck the 5-outers). Beware of the possibility that your straight draws -- particularly gutshots -- might be unprofitably jammed up by someone else's two pair, or your two pair making someone else a straight, to say nothing of your non-nut flush problems.


In general, when there's a reasonable likelihood that the pot will be raised or reraised before the flop, these hands become unprofitable in early and middle positions. Also, you prefer your opponents to play passively after the flop as you'll often need to improve after the flop in order to win, and don't want to pay much before improving. When you flop a solid draw and have more than two opponents, try to get as much money in the pot on the flop as possible, using whatever plays work best to accomplish this. If you don't already know it, realize that these hands are simply poisonous offsuit.


You should also understand that beginners vastly overrate starting hand selection. In a $3-6 game, the average profit for a profitable hand is less than a buck. Usually only AA-TT, AKo and AQs are worth more than the blinds (it varies with position and type of opponents). You need to limit and adjust your starting hands to avoid leaking off money in drips and drabs, but playing correctly before the flop won't make you win by itself.


The real money is made on the turn and the river, when you trap your opponents for double-sized bets with the best hand but avoid being trapped yourself with decent hands that are apparently beaten, as adjusted for the size of the pot. In tighter games or rare instances in loose games you win by exploiting your image and blowing people off pots with hands that appear to be better than they are. In other words, you have to read the board and your opponents and adjust accordingly. Players that don't read and adjust don't win. The players that adjust the best win the most.

backdoor,


It has been a while since I looked at hand groups and was surprised to see some of these hands rated so highly. I agree that pairs is where you should open up in low limit. If the game is loose and very passive, I would play all the pairs UTG rather than a hand such as J8s or Q9s. It is hard to lose much with 22 when you don't flop a set and if you do flop a set you are less vulnerable to straights then you are with middle pairs. Note that the latter two hands are not only safer to play in back but make much more money there when they flop well. Like any hand the pairs make more money in back but the difference is not as pronounced IMO.


Another hand you can open up UTG with so long as the game is passive is Ax suited. But don't be afraid to pack it back in the toolbox if the game tightens up or you start to see a fair amount of raising behind you.


Regards,


Rick

Tommy,


In all seriousness, do you still get action when you play any hands from early and middle position?


Thanks,


Effie

"In all seriousness, do you still get action when you play any hands from early and middle position?"


I'll assume you mean after I open raise, and in all seriousness, the answer is I get maybe 10% less action than a medium-lose player because on average there's about one player who will lay down a hand against me that he'd play against a meduim-losey. I get more action from early than from middle. Such is the nature of the-more-players-behind-the-more-likely-to-get-action, which is precisely why I don't invite action with Q-9.


Tommy

Dear Allen,

Drawing hands like these require at least 4 other players in the pot preflop. If you are not sure you will have at least 4, fold. The "made" hands are king in hol'em. The drawing hands are difficult to complete.


Sitting Bull

Great posts... thanks to backdoor and Chris Alger !!

These guys know their shit.

Great posts... thanks to backdoor and Chris Alger !!

These guys know their shit.

Dear Player,

Identify the type of game you are playing in. If the game is predominantly a loose passive one , these drawing hands are playable in any position. I'm not sure if they're playable in a loose-aggressive game. I do know that your stack will have big swings.


Sitting Bull

Quick Question? How much action do you really want from lousy position? I personally prefer not to get too much. JMHO


Larry