Posted in CO with KQs

[ugadawg]

<font color="red"> Comments on any street appreciated. I was new to the table (hence the posting /images/graemlins/smile.gif) and had no reads or notes </font>
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Dawg is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. Dawg posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Dawg (poster) raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Dawg raises</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Dawg calls.

<font color="red"> Wussed out for some reason. </font>

River: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Dawg calls.

<font color="red"> OK, I missed all my draws and I have TPGK. IMHG? </font>

Final Pot: 12.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.25 BB, between Dawg and MP1.</font>

[crockett]

You missed two raises. The turn and the river.

K7?

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
You missed two raises. The turn and the river.

K9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the stop and go mean anything?

[Entity]

It's quite possible I would raise the turn, and if 3-bet, call down. If he calls and checks the river, I bet; if he calls and leads the river, I call.

Rob

[Jimbobobb]

Raise the turn - if he 3-bets you can just call a river bet. I'm guessing KJ

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You missed two raises. The turn and the river.

K9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the stop and go mean anything?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes, but it seems like sngs are making me lose too many value raises. Would you just call down after the sng? Could be he thought you were raising with a flush draw, and thinks his KJo is good. Could be he's got K9 for 2pr. Not sure how to tell which without raising the turn.

Rob

[Sent]

So if you raised the turn and he 3-bet would you still call on the river unimproved?

-Sent

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You missed two raises. The turn and the river.

K9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the stop and go mean anything?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes, but it seems like sngs are making me lose too many value raises. Would you just call down after the sng? Could be he thought you were raising with a flush draw, and thinks his KJo is good. Could be he's got K9 for 2pr. Not sure how to tell which without raising the turn.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I'm a little more aggressive in SnG's tho... I play them for entertainment value not for making money. I would raise in this situation about 75% of the time in SnG's (stack and limit size dependant).

If MP1 had something like KJo, wouldn't MP1 raise there? A call, then leading out into the pfr and flop raiser. Hmmmm.... with a read, I would raise, but no reads on a new table. Is this a little aggressive?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
So if you raised the turn and he 3-bet would you still call on the river unimproved?

-Sent

[/ QUOTE ]Usually, yes. If I had a read on the opponent as uberpassive, no. I've seen quite a few raises in situations like this with very odd hands, though (A9o, A7o, KTo).

I can see an argument for calling down here, and I think the decision to raise the turn vs. calling down is marginal.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You missed two raises. The turn and the river.

K9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the stop and go mean anything?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes, but it seems like sngs are making me lose too many value raises. Would you just call down after the sng? Could be he thought you were raising with a flush draw, and thinks his KJo is good. Could be he's got K9 for 2pr. Not sure how to tell which without raising the turn.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I'm a little more aggressive in SnG's tho... I play them for entertainment value not for making money. I would raise in this situation about 75% of the time in SnG's (stack and limit size dependant).

If MP1 had something like KJo, wouldn't MP1 raise there? A call, then leading out into the pfr and flop raiser. Hmmmm.... with a read, I would raise, but no reads on a new table. Is this a little aggressive?

[/ QUOTE ]
By sng, I meant stop n' go, not sit n' go. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Like I said to Sent, I've seen this play with odd hands far too often to make calling down be my de facto line. Sometimes I'll call down, sometimes I'll raise. I think with the outs Hero has and the potential that he's already ahead, a raise is for value this time.

Rob

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
By sng, I meant stop n' go, not sit n' go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[ugadawg]

Thank you everyone. The stop-n-go did surprise me a little and having no reads didn't help me either!

[PokerBob]

Raise the turn, but you knew that. I think YHIG more than 9% of the time, so the river call is easy IMO.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Could be he thought you were raising with a flush draw, and thinks his KJo is good. Could be he's got K9 for 2pr. Not sure how to tell which without raising the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you raise the turn cuz you think you have the best hand, not to find out if you are behind. The only way you'll really know is at showdown, and IMO there is no way you can get away from this hand before then. So many players will bet out with K-rag here that raising the turn has to be +EV. Especially with the 2nd nut flush draw.

[easypete]

I really think you are beat on the turn. You showed power on the flop... They respected it... They push again on the turn.

I also agree that MP1 may play this way with hands like KJo, Kx.

I think you would be good about 30-40% of the time. About 28% of the time, you will improve on the river. (3 Q's, 2 K's, and 8 other flush cards). So a raise here is +EV. I would raise here almost all the time (barring a good read).

One question. If you believe you are behind at this point (which I give it a &gt;50% probability), and you raise the turn, MP1 calls.

If MP1 checks the river, what do you do?

If MP1 bets the river, what do you do?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Could be he thought you were raising with a flush draw, and thinks his KJo is good. Could be he's got K9 for 2pr. Not sure how to tell which without raising the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you raise the turn cuz you think you have the best hand, not to find out if you are behind. The only way you'll really know is at showdown, and IMO there is no way you can get away from this hand before then. So many players will bet out with K-rag here that raising the turn has to be +EV. Especially with the 2nd nut flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with that. My reasoning for raising the turn was that you are ahead often enough that it's close to a value bet. I think I phrased it wrong in that paragraph though.

Rob

[nepenthe]

I happen to have a personal dislike for stop and goers and have a tendency to punish them even if they end up winning. I would raise the turn or the river. Preflop and flop are standard.

[wuwei]

I read the stop n go as 1 of two things. Either he thinks your on a flush draw and is relieved by the /images/graemlins/spade.gif turn, or he's just made two pair with KT. Without a read, I'll probably call it down like you did... although a turn raise is tempting. If I do raise the turn and get 3-bet, I'm still calling down because my hand is often good at .5/1 (and I want a read on this player).

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I happen to have a personal dislike for stop and goers and have a tendency to punish them even if they end up winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Yeah... giving them an extra 4 BB is punishment enough... I think they learn their lesson. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I used to hate the stop and go until I had it happen to me live by a 2+2er.

I'm playing the 6/12 at the Mirage. I have AKs ( /images/graemlins/club.gif). UTG (a 2+2er) limps. 4 limpers to me.. I raise. All call

Flop Q /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (not sure of the 5... but it was offsuit rag).

UTG bets... all call... I raise... UTG thinks for a second... looks down my way... and calls. we lose 2 players.

Turn comes. Blank. UTG bets. Folded to me... I call.

River comes. Blank... UTG bets... I fold. He flashed me a QTs.

Now, I think I played this well... I put the money in the pot when it was +EV. I called when I had odds... I folded when I knew I was beat.... I don't remember this hand because I lost or think I played bad... I remembered this hand, because it taught me what the stop and go means w/ a good player doing it.

Think about it from his perspective... Did he play this correct? He flopped top 2 pair... What did he put me on? AQ? AKs? AA? KK? I think this is all possible. I think he played this the best way to maximize profits while minimizing losses.

According to ToP, which doesn't apply to most micro games, in a situation like this playing against a tough opponent, you call the flop, and bet out the turn, as not to give a free card, and bet w/ the best hand at the time (top 2-pr). If I raised there, he would have called me down. If another scare card hit on the river, then he would have c/c me. He was looking for an Ace, King, club. All of these would have slowed him down. He was following the FToP very nicely.

I agree w/ you most of the time... I will raise back to them... but I've found that w/ decent players (which w/ no reads on a table, you must assume a solid player), you need to respect the stop and go more.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
which w/ no reads on a table, you must assume a solid player

[/ QUOTE ]

I respectfully disagree with the above. At Party 0.5/1 and 1/2, if I don't have a read, I assume retard until proven otherwise. Throw a rock at a random sample of 0.5/1 or 1/2 players, and I think you hit a moron &gt;50% of the time.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Throw a rock at a random sample of 0.5/1 or 1/2 players, and I think you hit a moron &gt;50% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol... true enough... true enough. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I used to take that route, nowadays, i take the route of "competent until proven idiot". It's saved me a few BB's.

[Sent]

He have T9s or something?

-Sent

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
Throw a rock at a random sample of 0.5/1 or 1/2 players, and I think you hit a moron &gt;50% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Throw a rock at a random sample of 0.5/1 or 1/2 players and the rock will transform into a fish before it even hits a moron.

[nepenthe]

Oh absolutely. I use the stop and go all the time against aggressive players or players who tend to have a clue. The value with the stop/go, since it's usually such a fishy move, lies with strong hands with which you intend to 3-bet.

[Cerril]

At .5/1, without a read raise the turn, call the river or maybe even raise it. I would not at all be surprised to see him turn over two clubs or another missed draw with an ace high (AQ, AJ).

However, while it would be -EV to fold the turn, I'd say that would be the second best option (i.e. don't put in a single extra bet)

[ugadawg]

Thank you again everyone. Very interesting thread I think and I learned a lot.

Drumroll please.......The results are.....

[ QUOTE ]
He have T9s or something?

-Sent

[/ QUOTE ]

Sent gets the cookie. /images/graemlins/smile.gif He had Th9h.

-JP

[jluker7]

I am raising turn, With my made hand +17 outs. 8 Clubs, 4 Jacks, 3 Queens, 2 Kings, Along with the hidden outs that you dont know if you have or not. Now that we know we could count the 7's as outs too.

So I am raising there with my made hand plus a monster draw. I just think its the correct move.

But nice play you saved money.

Check/Call River, Get your read. Then you know next time.

[Jimbobobb]

Hahahahahahaha

[ QUOTE ]

I respectfully disagree with the above. At Party 0.5/1 and 1/2, if I don't have a read, I assume retard until proven otherwise. Throw a rock at a random sample of 0.5/1 or 1/2 players, and I think you hit a moron &gt;50% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best_quote_ever, and I'd raise that to hitting a moron &gt;80% of the time