Just can't break through

[Gamblor]

Hi everyone - I am in need of general tournament advice.

I generally play NL hold 'em OK. I'm not particularly good, but not bad either - probably about break even.

As far as tournaments go, I find myself making the money all the time. Playing about one tournament a week, and only the $100+9 and $200+15s, I make the money often enough to make myself a relatively break-even player, usually double/tripling my buy-in for 3-4 hours work - so obviously I spend most of my time in Cash games.

3 times of the last 10 tournaments I've played, I've finished 11th, one short of the final table. I invariably end up relatively short stacked.

The last two, both 6 handed, one short of the final table:

I have about 8 times the BB with AQo in the SB. CO (bigstack) raises 3x the BB, I push and get shown KK.

I have about 5 times the BB with rags on the button and push to steal, get called by QQ in the BB.

My thinking on both plays: I'm getting desperate to build a stack at the shorthanded tables so I can play when we get to 10-handed. With a couple blinds it's not worth it and I may be crippled due to blinds swinging around so fast when short-handed.

Is it worth risking elimination late to try and build a stack to take a shot at the real money?

[Bernas]

[ QUOTE ]

I generally play NL hold 'em OK. I'm not particularly good, but not bad either - probably about break even.

As far as tournaments go, I find myself making the money all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are making the money ALL THE TIME I would classify you as good and more than break even!

[pokerraja]

I just want to add that you obviously know what you are doing if you make the money and you make it fairly deep. Now to get the final table you are going to have to win some all-in races, that is almost inevitable. So basically you have to gamble it up when you get good hands. The blinds move up to fast to do anything else late in the game.

[Gamblor]

For all you retards out there, by "all the time" I mean I don't go long enough without making the money to warrant reconsidering tournaments as a change-of-pace decision.

In other words, I can beat the rake, and have even shown a profit over my last 20 tournaments, but that total profit amounts to peanuts over the 45 hours or so i've played in those tournaments relative to a typical 45 hours in cash games.

As the title suggests, I just can't break through to a big payday.

Suggestions, i.e. you just have to get lucky on those races, or avoid races and wait for steal opportunites, well that's a little more helpful than this clown.

[Bernas]

First of all I wasn't trying to be a smart ass or a "Retard" as you say.

I am just saying that if you are finding yourself in the money a lot or are a "Break-even" player than I would consider you "good"or at the very least "above average".

I am sorry my post upset you.

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with finishing in the money consistently and not making a huge score.

If making the huge score is what you are looking for than try being a little more aggressive and be prepared to take bigger chances. But be prepared to bust out a lot more and not make the money nearly as much.

[Dr_Colossus]

I'd agree. You obviously have a strong tournament game if you can repeatedly make the money. One question, what is the average amount of players entering these tournaments and are they freezouts or re-buys?
In making the latter stages of the tournament when the tables are down to two or three short handed tables I think you have the right strategy in pushing when short stacked. Most players at this stage of the tournament will try everthing to try and conserve chips for the final table. Also the size and pace of the blinds indicates that you can't play your normal tight game and wait for quailty hands as you will be blinded out of the tournament.
The case you highlighted when you pushed with A Q on the SB was just unfortunate but definately the right play. A large stack in late position at the final tables will ofter raise with nothing attempting to steal the blinds as the short stacked blinds will fold everything but their very premium hands. You played correctly by pushing back with A Q and were just unfortunate that the raiser happened to have a quality hand.
When raising all-in in late position in an attempt to steal the blinds you should have a decent with some chance of winning a showdown. Don't raise with nothing against moderate to large stacks as they are likely to call in the attempt of eliminating another player. Likewise don't raise against small stacked players as they are likely to give up and defend their blinds with any moderate hand.
Keep up the good work and keep making those final tables.

[Potowame]

Don't be result oriented. You made good plays that, ran into big hands.

Hand #1 There is no doubt he is calling your reraise. I would say he would make this same play with a wide range of hands QJos-AK 22-AA. Your in pretty good shape to most of those. You just ran into a big hand at the wrong time, thats it.

Hand#2 Now this is slightly borderline to me just because at 5xbb you are going to get called by alot of hands that you want to fold here. If the BB stack size was 10-12BB They will of course fold more often to avoid being totally crippled, but bigger stacks and smaller stacks are calling with about any two. again a good steal oppertunity that ran into a big hand.

Getting top 20 is Hard, and unless you have a big stack you are going to have to make moves like these to get to the final table.

[bobby rooney]

Is it worth risking elimination late to try and build a stack to take a shot at the real money?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a word, yes. This is the time to steal, steal, steal. The way most tourney's pay out, the money is in the top few spots. Play aggressively to get some chips when you are down to two short handed tables. Figure out who is trying just trying to hang on and outlast people, and push them out of pots. Usually the blinds/antes are pretty high at this point, so you have to steal some. If you don't play aggressively at this point, people will pick up on that and steal from YOU. Anyway, good luck, I haven't fully mastered this either but I know I need to.

[Gamblor]

Apologies.

There are enough trolls on these forums to keep one's guard up that there's no need for me to make trolls out of normal posters.

[Gamblor]

Usually the mid-day $100+9s on Party have about 250-500 runners, and the Weekly $200+15s have between 1000 and 1500.

The larger field tourneys I tend to make more $ but finish worse - I have 5 finishes in the top 100 out of 20 or so $200 events, and 3 top 20s and 11 money finishes in 30 $100 events.

[Benal]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it worth risking elimination late to try and build a stack to take a shot at the real money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a doubt. You'll never get a shot at the real money without risk, but I'm sure you already knew that. You just happened to run into big hands in those two hands you posted.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
For all you retards out there, by "all the time" I mean I don't go long enough without making the money to warrant reconsidering tournaments as a change-of-pace decision.

In other words, I can beat the rake, and have even shown a profit over my last 20 tournaments, but that total profit amounts to peanuts over the 45 hours or so i've played in those tournaments relative to a typical 45 hours in cash games.

As the title suggests, I just can't break through to a big payday.

Suggestions, i.e. you just have to get lucky on those races, or avoid races and wait for steal opportunites, well that's a little more helpful than this clown.

[/ QUOTE ]


Were you hoping I’d lend you my secret magic tournament decoder ring? Or perhaps let you know that if you just hold the TAB button down when stealing that you won’t run into QQ?

Maybe you should clarify what exactly are you expecting from this post, since each scenario you noted above should bring the Bad Beat Police running.

--Greg

[gergery]

Alright, since you’ve acknowledged not everyone is a retard:

I play $20/30 MTTs, and have two final tables out of about 20 tourneys (400-1400 entrants), with a bunch of other cashes, so this may not be too applicable, but my formula for success is:

- Play tight. My VPIP at the end of my final table tourneys was ~16%. David Ross, who plays in the $100 buyins has noted his #s similar to this.
- Be patient. Each tourney there were times I really wanted to get it on with loose stacks putting pressure on me. I’d wait, and wait, and wait and fold 77/AQ hands, and then catch big cards or a good flop and double up, and watch them get busted.
- Play aggressively, my flop aggression # from PTracker was 4.5
- Pay careful attention to who’s blinds you can steal. Pick on the 1) tight 2) medium sized stacks, from any position. But only loosen up alittle bit to do this.
- Be willing to call down the loose players (or, trust your read). Several times I’d raise with QQ and have an Axx board, or raise with TT and see Jxx board, and have the loose players raise me big. I’d grit my teeth and call, and win.
- Be willing to push moderate EV edges. Early-mid stages, push in with AK when expecting to be up against QQ but getting 2:1 on your call in chips in pot.
- Use the stop n go as appropriate. Not only when you are shortstacked, but when up against shortstacks or steals (ie. call button raises from the BB then raise them on most flops, instead of raising loose players preflop). It’s a lot easier for your opponents to fold once they’ve missed the flop (which happens a lot), than preflop when they think they’ve got a better chance. You also keep the pot smaller, which favors better players over long run.
- Practice shorthanded play. I’d been playing lots of 6-max, and moving up a few spots at the final table is worth $$$.
- Get lucky. I had to win at least 4 coinflips while losing none, and have my 70% favorite hands mostly hold up at least that often, in both tourneys.
- Recognize that one top 5 finish is worth 10 top 30 finishes. You only need to reach that peak a very small number of times to make the entire MTT existence very profitable, and know that just 1-2 hands going different over the course of 300 might have meant 2 wins for you instead of 2 11ths.
- Keep in mind that someone who gets multiple 11ths in big buy in tourneys obviously plays well – you just need a little reminder and the renewed confidence to make it happen.

--Greg

[Gamblor]

I'm talking specifically the kind of play in the very late stages that puts people over the hump, so to speak.

I haven't played tournaments very long - only a year or so - so I'm still getting the hang of the late stages which didn't come around to often early in my tournament career, but have started to come around more and more frequently.

Is it as simple as just catching lucky cards, or is there something more to getting to those final tables and making a big score?

[lolita16]

One strategy that I have found useful is to generally avoid trying to steal with hands that if called are likely to be beaten and badly dominated. Specifically, I am referring to QJ, Q,10, KJ, and K10.

If you are trying to steal with say 68 and someone comes back over top of you, if you put him on overs this is a much better call than with a dominated hand. The two undercards are only about a 60/40 dog, where the dominated hand is frequently a 3:1 dog. When stealing with a bad ace, raise the standard three times the BB. Then you can get away from the hand if you get played back at. When you reach a desperately short stacked situation, you are going to have to try to steal. I greatly prefer to fire my last 2 1/2 times the big blind in as a raise rather than become pot committed as soon as the big blind comes around with two random cards.

Another thought that has worked well for me is to take some chances early with speculative hands, even when you suspect you are badly beat. If you can see the flop relatively cheaply (and you frequently can as players who have AA or KK do not want to raise so much as to steal the small amount out there in blinds. An example from a tournament I played today: I limp in early position with J10, it gets raised to $60 behind me and called. (tourney started with 1000 chips) I fold knowing I'm way behing. Flop comes JJ5, pocket aces push all in, pocket 4's call behind him. Instantaneous triple up for about 5% of my stack.

Particularly in no limit, I think the risk is worth it if you are fairly sure you are against a big pair and if you can take his whole stack if you hit it.