Party 3/6: Blind steal turns into a gutshot and then a flush draw...

[chesspain]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

This was my first hand at the table, and neither player was known to me.

Preflop: chesspain is CO with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. chesspain posts a blind of $3.
<font color="666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain (poster) raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, chesspain calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, chesspain checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, BB calls, chesspain calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, chesspain checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, Button calls.

River: (10.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, chesspain calls.

Is this all fairly standard, including the three-bet and cap call on the river?

Results in white below: (since I'm leaving for work now, I'll trust that you won't look at the results until you've come to an opinion about the hand) /images/graemlins/smirk.gif <font color="white">
chesspain has 7c 8c (flush, jack high).
Button has Tc Kc (flush, king high).
Outcome: Button wins 18.16 BB. </font>

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i play it da same, i may not semi-bluff the turn though.

[scotnt73]

looks good to me chess. id have put him on 99 or 1010. id have capped the river as well.

[ErrantNight]

honestly?

i think it is, a little

your raise PF seems a lil loose to me, you don't talk about the table much, but if it was a tight, passive table... this is alright, but it had better be tight, your raise w/ no one seeing the flop is basically saying you think you can win this straight up

you'd be better off calling, and getting raised isn't that big an issue

regardless, i'm ok with your flop call...

as for the turn, you've picked up your flush outs, and a relatively non-threatening overcard has hit, but since you built such a big flop before the flop, this raise isn't gonna drive anyone out. you're betting for value, but you're likely behind and you MUST hit on the river, he isn't gonna fold in this big of a pot

had you checked preflop, the turn c/r isn't as bad


keep in mind this is regardless of the results. he wasn't gonna fold that turn for anything, but in general that raise would be worth something with a marginal hand... but not the way this pot played out

still: i say you call preflop, call the flop, call the turn (after considering c/r'ing), and bet the river, the 3-bet is also fine, and would be MUCH better given the way this hand played out

again, this wasn't TERRIBLE play, by any means, but you put money into the pot at bad times.

this is double posted, fyi

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
...your raise PF seems a lil loose to me, you don't talk about the table much, but if it was a tight, passive table... this is alright, but it had better be tight, your raise w/ no one seeing the flop is basically saying you think you can win this straight up

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I noted that this was my first hand at the table. And I don't think a raise here means I have to believe I'm going to necessarily win this straight up. In fact, Mason discusses in Poker Essays III (p. 126) this exact starting hand, except (of course) that the play did not occur pursuant to one having posted.

He believes that unless the blinds are very loose (which I had no reason to believe since I had just sat down), that openraising with 78s in late position is usually correct since one has three possible ways to win, by:

1. Possibly getting everyone to fold;
2. Giving one the chance to steal on the flop or beyond;
3. Sometimes making the best hand and winning a nice pot.

Given all of the above, I figured that if this hand was often good for a raise, it would certainly be good for a raise here since I was already in for one bet.

Or am I just misapplying the lessons from this essay?

[ErrantNight]

i think you're doing fine in your initial application thought-process... but i think that party 3/6 means that the blinds will be too loose... i think ssh handles this particular situation a little bit more accurately... and it calls for a call in this situation...


at higher stakes or with known, tight blinds, i like this raise... here, i think it's too fancy for the numb-skulls that populate party at all the small limits

[ErrantNight]

more specifically...

7-8s is still a speculative hand. with people bound to call you down, you must hit to win, and top pair isn't likely to bail you out when you get called down w/ absolute nonsense

you have fewer ways to protect your hand when you miss, and less money in the pot when you hit

go ahead and call here until you think the game is tight enough for this play to work (and then seriously consider switching games... at 3/6 even efficient blind-stealing and other plays that work well at tighter tables won't show as good a profit as the looser ones)

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
more specifically...

7-8s is still a speculative hand. with people bound to call you down, you must hit to win, and top pair isn't likely to bail you out when you get called down w/ absolute nonsense

you have fewer ways to protect your hand when you miss, and less money in the pot when you hit

go ahead and call here until you think the game is tight enough for this play to work (and then seriously consider switching games... at 3/6 even efficient blind-stealing and other plays that work well at tighter tables won't show as good a profit as the looser ones)

[/ QUOTE ]

So the fact that I was already in for one bet as a poster doesn't change your opinion at all about the openraise?

[ErrantNight]

i don't think so...

when you hit you'll get paid off because you could have anything from that spot... checking as the CO poster is just as good as calling as the CO... a raise likewise looks about the same... i'd feel more comfortable bluff-raising with a worse hand like A9o from here... as it has a better chance of showing down and winning unimproved against a calling station

[chesspain]

.

[me454555]

I play it the same way

[sfer]

I've given up on semi-bluffs at Party unless I know the player well enough to be confident they won't call me down with any pair, which means I do it rarely now. Once the turn goes heads-up, however, I think it's a good spot absent a read.

I would just call the raise on the river against an unknown. The raise says I can beat a lot of hands and the flush is plain for anyone with a partial lobotomy to see. If he shows some crazy-assed two pair then I start licking my chops.

What are you doing up, anyway?

[sthief09]

I'd cap preflop. that will disguise your hand well, and increases your chances of taking it down with one bet if the flop comes with an A.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
So the fact that I was already in for one bet as a poster doesn't change your opinion at all about the openraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it has to. I would sometimes open-fold (a la mike l.) this from the CO (doubtless someone is going to tell me this is too tight, but I would do this when I have a very loose or aggressive image and am unlikely to be able to steal), but if you're definitely in for one bet it certainly makes sense to raise here in the hopes of buying the button to help win the pot uncontested.

I'm thinking about sthief's suggestion to cap, it's not something I would usually do here but it seems tricky enough that I think I like it. The one more small bet you invest probably does significantly increase your chances of winning the pot on the flop or turn if your opponent was trying to resteal and does not flop a pair, and the times you do hit a strong hand then your hand will be almost impossible to read and you may be paid off handsomely.

I hope my opinions have some value despite my being from London. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you doing up, anyway? [at 3:01am EST]

[/ QUOTE ]

After falling asleep in my living room chair at 9:30pm while watching the WSOP /images/graemlins/tongue.gif, I woke up at 12:45am, watched the last fifteen minutes of the repeat episode, and then proceeded to scroll these boards during my second wind.

I guess I can ask you "What are you doing up now as well?" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I can ask you "What are you doing up now as well?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I had just gotten home after playing 5/10 with sthief09 and Rusted Corpse, so there's no coincidence we both hopped on SS at the same time. Now I'm bleary eyed and slowly sipping coffee at my desk at work. I guess it's better than a hangover. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ErrantNight]

why oh why are all of you advocating putting this much money into a small pot against loose players who will generally call down and are already actively responding to your aggression w/ a speculative hand that NEEDS to improve? yes, come the turn there's lots of outs, but there's not so many on the flop to make this a terribly powerful hand, and it's a decent, not good draw. and preflop this seems a poor hand to steal raise w/, and once you're 3-bet against, even IF that's a semi-bluff (or bluff) response... shouldn't you almost ALWAYS give up on YOUR bluff at that point?

isn't this exactly what fish do, going too far, playing too aggressively, with too weak of a hand in a small pot? yes, the end result was remarkably unlucky (hit your hand and loss to a worse made hand).... but he was hopelessly behind on almost every street and yet because you're on party you automatically make the assumption that all your opponents aggression is PURE bluff and because you have a decent draw it's worth throwing money away? really?

aren't there much better spots to play this aggressively or continue trying to steal with than a hand that MUST improve to win? what about the play here makes you think that an extra small bet on the flop will let you take it down for one bet on any upcoming street. the fact that every time you've bet he's raised?