Hierarchy of Fear

Reading a couple of these threads, I kept being reminded of Tommy Angelo's idea of the 'Hierarchy of Fear'. Some of you may recall the thread a while back about how our game is effected by who we fear and who fears us at the table. I think the idea is valid, and definitely comes into play in poker psychology during real-time play at the table.


Then I read the thread about folding AKo in 'very aggressive games' and the thread about folding ATs on the button against 9 World Class Players. I began to think 'Ok, so we're supposed to play tight and aggressive, but in one circumstance, it is suggested to fold a very strong starting hand because your opponents are aggressive (wouldn't you want them to be betting inferior hands hard into your AK?) and the other thread suggests that a hand that has a high probability of being the best hand on the button should be played weakly (folded) because the other players in the game are 'World Class'. It seems to me if you are that afraid of your opponents that it is damn near immpossible to win. What hands are you going to play in these games if you can't play these hands? do you expect to see free flops from the Big Blind and get lucky? I realize that these are hypothetical hands and situations, but one has to assume they will be PLAYING in these games and not merely posting blinds and hoping to god to look at AA sometime.


Is fear getting to us? Are we throwing hands away that might be beSt because we are fearful of our opponents' plays behind us? There comes a point in playing poker where you have to throw your money in the pot without being positive of the results. There comes a point where you need to take control of the game and make your opponent fear YOU. Does anybody else see this as being a factor at play here?

Good post. The only way I know to go from fearful to feared in any particular opponent's eyes is to show no fear. And one hand can do it. Let's say I've been staying out of a guy's way because I fear him, but one day I wake up and decide to try to pass him on the hierarchy. Reraising him preflop with A-10 is exactly the type of hand that will serve that end. If he gets to see my hand in a showdown, it won't matter who won the pot or lost it. The message is the same either way: I'm not afraid of you any more.


In the game with nine world-classers, the fear battle cannot be won, but it can be lost. The best hope is a tie, and here again, raising with A-10-ish type hands will send the "I'm not wimpering, I'm contending" message.


Tommy

"...raising with A-10-ish type hands will send the "I'm not wimpering, I'm contending" message."


What's a good "Reraising Hand" to send that type of message?

I think most people play too loose before the flop, but they get away with it because there are usually a couple bad players and a couple crazy loose players at the table that are also bad players. Basically, Hold'em is a game where you put money in when you think you can win part of the blinds. Unless the other players are making a mistake, if they put their money in, even though there is more money now, there is less of it for you to win, all other factors being equal. Meaning if you have AA there is more, but if you have K10 there is less, since you now won't be able to steal the blinds. What I'm trying to say is, if other players are playing correctly, when they put money in the pot, it lowers your long run EV.

If I were in a game against very aggressive players, I can assume a few facts, and after a few rounds know for sure.


1. Normally, very aggressive players are very good players.


2. They rarely make mistakes.


3. They do not play inferior hands because they know they are probably facing a raise or two every time they put in their chips.


4. I would be working way to hard for my wins, and could be severely punished. They can be just having fun and playing around.


I can't speak for ATs against world class, but I think odds come into play, and they aren't there to be tough with ATs. Plus world class players I imagine should leave their egos at home.


For me it's not a matter of fear taking over, it's a matter of having fun and making a profit. Why do I want to play my hardest for peanuts, when there is a nice soft game at the next table with lot's of easy money?


IMO when these discussions come up they are either theoretical or ego driven. I have little ego and only a grasp of theory to speak from so put my comments in that context.


Mike

pocket pairs TT 99 88 77 66

yes, this is theory only. i don't think id sit in a game against 9 World Class Players unless i was staked (and who the hell is gonna stake me in a game like that?). id definitely look for softer games. also, the hand in question in the aggressive game is AKo, which can be more aggressive than ATs.