Common Courtesy?

[JT Spades]

Alright, so I'm sitting 3-6 at my local cardroom and a couple people get up, so we're 7 handed. I'm in the SB and it gets folded around to me. I look down and see two black rockets and raise. At this point the BB goes nuts and begins to berate me, telling me that anyone knows in that situation the blinds are chopped and we move on our way. He folds in disgust and I flip over my AA.

Am I supposed to just fold my aces and take my SB back in this situation? or
Am I supposed to just play my hand?

[Andy B]

At this level, almost everybody chops. The rake is just too high for you to have any significant edge in a two-way pot. Selectively chopping is pretty shady, but if other people know you're a selective chopper, they can be selective when it comes to chopping with you. Generally, though, you either always chop or you never chop. If you would have chopped with 83o, you shouldn't have raised with those Aces.

Now, when a game starts getting short-handed--I don't chop when it's six-handed or less, but I always chop when it's seven-handed or more.

My local room has a promotion on Tuesdays where if you have pocket Aces and get beaten, you win $75. It's never come up, but I won't chop with Aces in this case. I also won't bet with them, unless I make a possible jackpot hand.

[TripleH68]

Raise and take his blind. This has nothing to do with courtesy.

[steamboatin]

I never chop. Can't answer your poll, it isn't a yes or no answer. I say raise and go ahead.

[afish]

You have to decide whether you always chop or never chop. It is not acceptable to only chop your bad hands. My sense is that you previously chopped in the game, and that's why people were mad. That said, I don't see how playing in a raked game makes any sense. It is unlikely that your edge against your opponent is greater than the rake.

[Duke]

If you chopped before, the raise is out of line.

If you never chop, then he's out of line for berating you.

Listen to Andy B, he's got it right.

~D

[Easy E]

No, you smooth call and pop him on the flop.

Chop is a fad, not a rule

[Easy E]

The rake is just too high for you to have any significant edge in a two-way pot

I would posit that anyone who rants that much about not chopping a pot, is probably someone that I should have a significant edge over

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
The rake is just too high for you to have any significant edge in a two-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, he has AA.

[UltimateDickory]

I started out playing online and in home games.. This came up a bunch of times since I've been visiting casinos.. I would raise and then when the guy starts crying try to piss him off as much as possible for the rest of the time he's at the table..more than likely you'll send him on tilt then home crying

[Andy B]

Perhaps. But do you think that you consistently have an edge playing heads-up out of position with a 10% rake? I don't mean just against this guy, but in general.

[Andy B]

Yeah, he's got AA this time. Most of the time this situation comes up, however, he's going to have garbage out of position in a heads-up pot having to fade a 10% rake and maybe a jackpot drop and/or a toke. How much of an edge do you think he has in that case?

[Kevin J]

Your poll is confusing in the way it's worded..

[ QUOTE ]
Am I supposed to just fold my aces and take my SB back in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

Or,

[ QUOTE ]
Am I supposed to just play my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. If you've been chopping, you should chop with aces as well.

[eh923]

Thank you for giving the right strategic answer. Why waste AA by raising someone who's probably going to fold? Heads up, squeeze what you can from them.

And, as most have said, "always chop, or never chop". I personally don't, and I tell the people to my left and right the first time I either (A)see someone else chop or (B) see it folded around to the cutoff.

[Six_of_One]

[ QUOTE ]
The rake is just too high for you to have any significant edge in a two-way pot

I would posit that anyone who rants that much about not chopping a pot, is probably someone that I should have a significant edge over

[/ QUOTE ]

When it comes to the SB, there is $4 in the pot. He raises. Let's assume the BB calls. Now the pot has $12. Flop comes whatever. SB bets with his AA, BB mucks. The house takes $3, plus $1 for the jackpot. That's 1/3 of the pot for the house. I'd call that too high for you to have any significant edge in a two-way pot.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for giving the right strategic answer. Why waste AA by raising someone who's probably going to fold? Heads up, squeeze what you can from them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd raise it every time. Any strong player who limps here is going to look really suspicious. Raise it, and hope he three-bets. Because it looks like a steal-with-any-two situation, he's going to call or three-bet really light.

He should, anyways. I don't buy the limping in the SB or on the button thing.

[parade]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise and take his blind. This has nothing to do with courtesy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would rather raise him, take his 1 small bet, piss him off, and possibly turn the whole table against you? Even if you just call, the guy's going to be so pissed off he's most likely just going to fold when you do bet at the flop.

I say chop, save the rake, and keep the whole table friendly.

[sfer]

Not chopping in a raked low limit game is silly.

[dark_avenger]

[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to the SB, there is $4 in the pot. He raises. Let's assume the BB calls. Now the pot has $12. Flop comes whatever. SB bets with his AA, BB mucks. The house takes $3, plus $1 for the jackpot. That's 1/3 of the pot for the house. I'd call that too high for you to have any significant edge in a two-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

10% of $12 is $1, not 3, and usually there's no bad beat rake until the pot reaches a certain size, so the total rake for this hand would be $1 , not $4, which i find complely beatable, especially against weak players

[ghettorat]

If you're playing $20/$40 for a living, raise. If you're playing $3/$6 recreationally on a Saturday night, then chop and move the game along. Don't be that guy... Especially you don't want to be that guy who chops his 48o and then raises his AA.

[Xargque]

If you pay by the hour, never chop.

If you lose a % of the pot, selectively chop or always chop.

If you lose a fixed amount of the pot, always chop.

-X

[Six_of_One]

[ QUOTE ]
10% of $12 is $1, not 3, and usually there's no bad beat rake until the pot reaches a certain size, so the total rake for this hand would be $1 , not $4, which i find complely beatable, especially against weak players

[/ QUOTE ]

In Southern California, where the original poster is located, the house takes $3 from the pot regardless of pot size. It's not based on a percentage. Say the SB only calls, and the BB checks. Now there is $6 in the pot...yes, the house takes $3, and the jackpot drop is taken as well. That doesn't depend on pot size either. You could be left with $2 in the pot (possibly $2.50, I'm not sure if the jackpot drop in 3-6 is $1 or $0.50).

You're right that it would be a different situation from an EV standpoint if the house only took $1, but that's not the case here.

[Prior22]

Last month I was playing $5-$10 at a B&M and I was the BB and had AA. Everyone folded and the guy 2 to my right said, "Well I'm folding too, so you guys can chop if you want." The SB then called my BB, then I raised. The SB thought for a minute then folded so we never saw a flop. I was so aggravated because for about 25 hands I was wondering if there was some poker room rule that I could not be dealt picture cards and at least one of my cards must be a 2 or 3. So I flipped over the AA as if to say finally I get something and nobody wants to play. Some guy (early 40's) who folded, and is a regular there, starts berating me saying I should have chopped and that I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know the rules of poker, calling me a punk, etc. He went on for about 3 minutes and was calling over the room manager telling him what I did, etc. Finally the SB was like, "I called his bet, I didn't want to chop either." The other guy would hear none of it. Luckily I was moved to the main table about 10 minutes later and didn't have to deal with him again.

[TomCollins]

I was playing Foxwoods 1-2 NL game and got dealt AA in the SB. I had been chopping, and for the first time all day, everyone folded to the button. I look over and think "please call or raise". He limps, I raise to $10, BB calls, and he folds. I win a pretty big pot, and toss the button his $2 back, thanking him from letting this be a chop.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

in a full ring raked game I always chop.
when it gets 5 handed or less, I play.

people will really hate you if you fold your bad hands but raise your good ones. its not good for your image or the game.

If I have a potential jackpot hand, i.e. AA and my opponent who I've already agreed to chop with, has KK, I'll call and check it down and see if we hit a jackpot, then I'll give him his money back after the hand.

[Andy B]

In most places, they won't pay the jackpot if there is no action in the hand.

[bernie]

Have you been chopping? If so, did you mention that you 'do' chop when it gets s/h? btw...i've yet to meet anyone who does this (covers the spectrum) right off the bat. Though it is fine to mention it if it becomes s/h, stating that you only do it with 'x' number of players. It still irks people doing this, however. That and you're not s/h here.

Selective chopping is bad. When someone does it to me, and they don't take the chance to take their bet back and chop, we're playing every blind from then on.

I tell people who ask me if i chop that yes, i do. It's the only time my aces hold up. Which usually gets a chuckle from them. Then i show them my aces when i chop sayin, 'they held up! woo hoo!'

Don't selectively chop. Or someone may make the decision for you from then on.

b

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
How much of an edge do you think he has in that case?

[/ QUOTE ]

You said the rake is too high for him to have an edge. I said he has AA. The rake could be an arm and a leg and he still has advantage with AA.

In this case, it's +EV to raise.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You said the rake is too high for him to have an edge. I said he has AA. The rake could be an arm and a leg and he still has advantage with AA

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about the EV pertaining to more than just this isolated hand. If i was BB, we would be done chopping at this point. I'd fold this time, but it's getting jacked everytime it comes up from here on out if you decide to complete. If you raise, and i figure you're trying to adjust to me, i will reraise you preflop relentlessly. Im at least seeing the flop. I also have position every time.

On the more 'realistic' SS opponent side, it's a chickenshit thing to do if you've been chopping the whole time. This is a case where you can give this little bit up, keep the table nice-n-happy, so as to help them keep their chips looser so you can gain more later.

Really, how much is it worth to you?

b

[italianstang]

You need to decide when you start playing poker if you ALWAYS chop or NEVER chop and then do that. I understand that we all there to make money, but if you selectively chop, you will undoubtedly upset the poker gods and you are screwed. Another reason not to look at your hand until its your turn, so you don't get pissed for having to fold aces.

[beerbandit]

it depends

when i sit down at the table i ask the players on both sides if they chop or want to chop

if they respond "yes, i walways chop" i have no problem with this

i have gotten the response of "well i have to look first"

it doesnt really matter to me it just speeds up the game and playing heads up for the blinds its tough to make a lot of money.

im surprised that in a 3-6 game that a chopping situation even came up

cheers
beer

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I was playing at a 3/6 game and it's my SB with AA. I personally didn't care if it was AA or not, I was going to chop anyways. When it came my action I was ready to take my chip back when the BB goes "Hey! What are you doing? I don't want to chop." even though I've seen him chop before. I mention this fact to him and he said he didn't care.

I shrugged and raised the hell out of him on every street and destroyed his QQ.

[RydenStoompala]

It's ok to ask, "you want to chop?" It's ok to say NO. It's ok to play on if you dont want to chop. It's not ok to go nuts when someone says they wont chop. It's very likely that this person only pulls money toward himself when he chops, so I understand his emotional response. You did nothing wrong.

[DBowling]

Chop it.

[Trainwreck]

Showing your AA should have shut him up... if not he is just a jerk, steal with 72o next time...

I've seen it go both ways, but I will raise the BB when I have a top 10 hand 100% of the time now...

Most places in Vegas don't allow chopping btw, although some dealers look the other way.

It's poker and part of the game, I am not there to make friends.... that just sometimes happens...

>TW<