Folding A10s on the button

David Sklansky's A10s was based on 15-30 LA. I think the key question is on how your opponents play. David says they're weak and loose. Many of you describe of crazy 6-7 way capped action with any two cards. I'm sure it happens, but the value of A10s just depends on the table.

Now what if you have 10 world class players. I believe it would be super tight up front and very rare multi-player action. Even if you get middle limpers, the hands would be limited to groups 1-3. Group 3 hands might even be too loose. Would you limp 10Js or KJs with 3-4 world class players behind you? So now, what is the value of A10s when you are up againts KQs, AJs, AK and JJ? Does position really help you that much. What about AA, KK, and AKs waiting to make it 3 bets. Anyone else vote for folding?

I think you are confusing world-class players with ultra tight players. There are truly world class players that play looser then most other excellent players, simply because they are capable of finding small edges in hands that almost nobody else could play profitably. Also, you mention open limping with hands like KJs in mid position, well I think a raise is probably the better play.

you may be right, but if the game is so tight that I need to fold that hand, then I need to move to another game too.

I'm assuming 10 world class players, so no small edges. KJs limping, also trying to fit David's case of 4 middle limpers.

Apparently "world class players" are defined as people who get more group 1 hands in late position than everyone else.


Tom Weideman

lol, now that is a great post. it seems like there is a point where you either play or walk away. if you choose to play in a game with world-class players (it might be fun, costly but fun...) then what hands do you play? you can't be afraid to put money in the pot when you have a statistically high chance of having the best hand. i think tommy's fear hierarchy comes into play too. world class schmorld class, if you have a better hand, you have to play it. if you are afraid of AA or KK behind you every time you get a hand, you need to play in a different game.

What I meant was AA, KK, and AKs limping in early or middle positions, waiting for you to raise your A10s on the button.

So what hands do you think 10 world class players would play? Certainly much tighter than what HPFAP suggests. And if the first person limps, would that make you tighter or looser?

you missed the point. a limp reraise is definitely a possibility, but what are the chances that anybody has one of those 2 hands? world class players don't play tighter than HPFAP suggests, in fact they play looser, and they can do this because they can outplay their opponents after the flop. so back to ATs on the button. in a randomly dealt hand, ATs is probably the best hand with enough frequency that you could play back at the WCP who limp-reraises from early position because they are probably trying to put a move on you and muscle you around. unless of course you have a read on them. or is it that WCP's have some uncanny ability to control the cards so that one of them will always have AA, KK, or AKs...?

Sorry if I wasn't very clear about 10 world class players. What I mean is 10 world class players playing against each other at the same table. The long run win or lose will be very small because the skills of world class players will probably be close (even Tiger Woods cannot beat other Tour Pros by very much). They will all lose to the rake.

world class players don't play tighter than HPFAP suggests, in fact they play looser, and they can do this because they can outplay their opponents after the flop.

It seems unlikely that all of your opponents are capable of outplaying each other.

well, some are more world class than others, as the case may be. which is why luck plays a huge part in who wins in the major tournaments. also, the case is different when they play against only each other... but under normal conditions, they play looser.