How to Prevent Lobbying In Stud?

Let's say you manage or consult management for a cardroom with at least one and sometimes two or three mid-limit stud eight or better games. The collection is taken from the antes. The game is good but often plagued by players in the game stepping away from the table to lobby, smoke, chat, and so on. Note that players can eat at the table in this club so leaving for dinner is usually not a problem as it is in Las Vegas (although taking an “out” button while eating the free food sometimes is).

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When the game gets six handed or less, the collection is reduced and it is six-handed of less almost half the time. Sometimes the game comes to a halt when it is short-handed and this isn’t good for the house or the many players who don’t like playing short.


The players don’t want the club to use a time charge, which is used in the equivalent limit holdem. Management is not comfortable with the many problems associated with implementing “third man walking,” so that is not an option at this point.


Are there any reasonable methods that will keep players in their seats? I’m looking for serious suggestions that may be somewhat “outside the box.” For example, applying epoxy glue to the seats of players is not a serious option and will not be considered /images/wink.gif


Regards,


Rick

Is sniffing the glue allowed ?

You're always going to have some of this, but you must look at all the reasons as to why players walk. Sometimes some of them can be improved upon. For instance, if players walk because certain dealers won't stop talking when they are in the box, that can be addressed. If they get mad because they feel decisions are inconsistent, that can be addressed. Pushing antes and pot rebates will also make some players walk as well as excessive deck chages.


While addressing these type of problems won't stop all walking, they can improve it assuming they exist and are corrected.


Best wishes,

mason

How is the collection taken from the antes? Is it a time charge? What about the players who don't ante?


I assume the house gets their cut no matter what, so why do they care? If the players don't like it, they can always play in another game or at another room.


I guess I just don't see the problem.

Brett,


As stated in the original post, collection is taken from the antes. This is 20/40 kill so the ante is $3. The collection is reduced when six-handed and so on. The house doesn't get their full cut if the game is constantly short-handed.


Lobbying, particularly in stud, tends to be a problem all over town. Most players prefer full games. So why wouldn't it be a good idea for a card club to try to find reasonable techniques to reduce lobbying?


BTW, didn’t you run a game or small room? Wouldn’t it be a problem if the players went somewhere else?


Regards,


Rick

players in l.a. are more fickle about shorthanded than vegas for sure. the house has always there tried to force players back to their seats. thats wrong. people need to walk, take breaks, get their minds together and what ever. those that go way overbaord can be picked up. or have a higher time charge for when you are gone. i dont know but i dont see catering either to those that have to have a full game every hand because they think the antes get them.

what happens lots is that players quit instead of being forced to return. i guess if the house has unlimited long lists than it can do what it wants.

i know i walk when the game is slow or extra tight. and thats my option. are you saying i should be forced to ante and play because the other slow or tight players want me to. if i cant take breaks thats okay i will just quit. but some like me will also keep a game going short handed and start any game the house wants. but then they turn around andsay you have only 20 minutes for dinner. i dont always want to eat at the table.

its tough and there is no solution. trying to please everybody, is like having a no smoking section. some give up for the benefit of the crying few.

The obvious solution is to charge by the half hour. Then the house gets its cut and the players have a reason to stay at the table. Are they taking so much out of the antes that this would cut into the profits?


BTW, didn’t you run a game or small room? Wouldn’t it be a problem if the players went somewhere else?




Yeah, but if we're talking about the Bike, who's going to notice one more empty table?

At the Commerce, you can get 45 minutes, but you will still have to pay the collections while you are gone. I've never understood why people are reluctant to quit the game and go eat. There is always something to play when you return.


The answer is within Ray's post, though. The club needs to hire a host for the game. A host is not some tight prop. A host is usually on the loose side, very friendly, and makes the game fun to play. If there is action, the players will stay.

Souring Eagle Casino in Michigan rules are:If your gone over 15mins.or get two missed blinds buttons you will be picked up.UNLESS you box up your chips,get a time you left slip to be displayed with your boxed chips. this allows any player to play over.This is similar to the Mirage,but it makes it manditory to box your chips.I realy liked PLAYERS ISLANDs in ST. Louis rule that made it manitory that you pick up your chips whenever you went to eat,you then informed a floor person so when you returned you were put at the top of the list of the game you were on.I believe at both card rooms you were given one hour to return.I realize that nether of these rules are going to make everyone happy at first,BUT thay DID take care of this proublem,and I realy never herd any griping once the players knew what they were expected to do.

Why do people think a cardroom is some "special" type of business? Just do what other small business managers do. You have three choices:


1) As Mason said improve your customer service and your profits will increase.

2) Increase the rake which will increase income with the potential downside of losing some customers.

3) Decrease expenses perhaps by paying the cardroom managers, that are not doing number 1 above, less money.


Outside the box? Not really but practical and common solutions used everyday.


Jimbo

Too much slows the game down, and you can include collection disputes, cell phones, etc.

How about making the games 9 handed? It would probably create more action in general, and when you have 2 players walking you will still have 7 live players. I think a community river card would be very, very, rare. And if it wasn't, that would mean the action was so good that it wouldn't matter.

Brett,


Charging time certainly helps curtail walking. But I've been told that both players and management want to stay with collection from the antes, so converting to a time charge is out for now.


Regards,


Rick

Brett,


Although the Bike already has props that fit your description, the club is looking for more good ones. The props also need to like to play short-handed, as it is inexcusable for a prop to get up from a game when there are already a couple of players with “out” buttons or the game is short. Have them email me at ricknebiolo@earthlink.net if you know good candidates. I can set them up to at least talk to the right people.


Regards,


Rick

Herb,


The problem in stud with collection from the antes is that players tend to take a lot more very short breaks than they do in holdem since there is no financial penalty to do so. In holdem, most breaks are for one round and two round breaks come close to thirty minutes, which means they are close to the point where the chips may be picked up.


To the best of my knowledge, playing over is not allowed in Los Angeles, but perhaps it is just custom and this is an idea worth looking into. Regarding breaks for dinner, note that most breaks seem to be to smoke or socialize, since you can eat at the table.


Regards,


Rick

Dav,


This idea is interesting, especially since there is more room around the tables at the Bike then some other clubs, so seating would still be reasonably comfortable. The club would probably have to have the option of pulling a prop out of the nine-handed game to start a second or third eight-handed game.


I’m not sure what the law has to say about this, but I’ll pass the idea on.


Also, I agree that you would rarely need a community card at this limit, but wonder if anyone has experience at this.


Thanks and Regards,


Rick

Mason


All that you mention is important, and we are working on improving in these and other areas. Hope you can make it to the media tournament kicking off the “Legends of Poker” this coming Wednesday evening or perhaps send a team. If you do, note that there will be a prize for the best-dressed team so maybe you can all wear suits /images/biggrin.gif.


Regards,


Rick.

How many props are usually in the game? That could be a problem.


Hosts are usually only required to play one game, and they often are paid better than props. They don't have to give up their seat, either, juat like some of the props at the Commerce. Some of the better hosts are Bob Golick, and Betty and Rambo when they were at HP.


I doubt that management would be willing to pay a host more than the normal prop wages for a game this size, but if they are, let me know.


If the game doesn't have good action, it will surely die. To keep the action good, you need new blood coming into the cardroom. Maybe mangement should concentrate more on the big picture, like offering incentives to players, and let the game take care of itself. But fwiw, Stud 8 games usually don't last. Even mix games quite often drop the E because very few players can beat it.

To the best of my knowledge, most poker management (including the Bike's) is taking a hard look at the Internet poker forums and discussion groups for suggestions, complaints, and good business ideas. This particular question regarding lobbying in stud was posted by request on the club’s behalf because we are looking for fresh ideas to help in this area.


Note that I’m primarily involved in working on some other ideas for procedural improvements (in addition putting in a full shift propping). I hope most of these ideas have potential and we have put a lot of work into refining them. Of course, they take a while to implement, but I’ve learned patience as time goes on.


I say this because I’ve only had a few spare moments to think about the stud lobbying dilemma, so my stud ideas may show inexperience in this area. Please feel free to flame away if you think this idea is unworkable or add refinements if you think the idea is headed in the right direction. I wear asbestos coated clothes anyway.


Idea #1. The Penalty Ante.


If a player misses at least two (or perhaps three) hands, they get a penalty ante button and must post two antes when they reenter the game (in this case an extra $3). This would be easy to track and not so big a penalty that it would be hard to enforce (or so I think). Picking up chips would still be in force for longer absences.


Has anyone ever seen anything like this and did it work?


Idea #2. The Dealer Button Combined with the Penalty Ante.


Some stud games use a dealer button to change the starting point of the deal. With a dealer button in stud, you could be assigned the double ante penalty based on how many dealer buttons you missed (i.e., perhaps a double penalty for two or more buttons missed). Note that savvy players can take the deal and miss up to seven hands without penalty but that might make the penalty about the right size, since otherwise it would be hard to track missed hands. Note that this method penalizes players more for getting up from short games, so in that sense it will work best when it is needed most.


Flame away, I live in an area with a sprinkler system so there is no danger of forest fire /images/biggrin.gif.


Regards,


Rick

Brett,


Good points. I'll try to get back tomorrow if/when I have more energy.


Regards,


Rick

Ever heard of the old saying "You catch more flys with molasses than vinegar"? I believe a reward system might prove more effective than a penalty system but your 2nd idea seems reasonable to me. It would allow for a moderate but not excessive amount of walking.


Jimbo

the real question is how can management keep the rake and not go to a time collection.


everything else follows from that.


brad

Mr. Malmuth,


On several occasions, I've seen in your writings, where you speak very derisively of talking dealers, as if they are practically the root of all evil in the poker room.


It's been my experience as a dealer that you can't just say "dealers should never talk" because sometimes that's what the players want!


While I don't stop the game to have a discussion (as I was born gifted enough to shuffle cards without using all my mental capacity) some of the low limit players I deal to enjoy having a dealer to 'egg on' the ambient conversation with the odd witticism, joke, comment or question. In fact, when I stay silent, they start to question or even tease me for it. Of course, if complex situations arise, like rounds with three side pots, and I suddenly fall silent while I focus on matters at hand, they understand.


While mostly it's the lower limit players that like this treatment, and the higher limit players who prefer the expedious and on-topic-only dealer, I recently dealt a $10/$20 heads up between two players who commented to my floorman how my friendly yet still subtle participation in the discussion (which didn't slow down the game at all, in case you were wondering) was appreciated.


Just wanted to let you know that not everyone wants a voiceless robot to deal to them.


Respectfully,


Charles Mousseau.

why not just take all the players money when he walks and let the house keep it. then maybe they will be satisfied. whats going to happen is that players will quit rather than come back. if thats what they want they will get it. the days of the long lists may be over and they will send their customers elsewhere.

poker players especially the regulars are what make a casino. these are the people that start games and keep them going. the people that complain about shorthanded never keep games going so why cater solely to them at the expenese of your bread and butter.

i am NOT defending the cronic walker thats never in his seat but when you are playing ten hour or more sessions its wrong to be not allowed an hour for a meal and some 30 minute breaks. why the floormen get them dont they.

then the whinners will complain when it gets to seven handed. there is no solution that works. nine handed stud is a different game and they will ruin their business for anything over the smallest of games.

when serious money is at stake the dealer should never talk, if only because if he then goes on to make a mistake it really looks bad and hard feelings develope.


brad

I agree that in the very small limit games, the dealer can take part in some conversation. But if you also behave as you describe in games at $10-$20 and up, I think you should be quickly fired.


It's my experience that at least half the problems that I observe at the poker table either occur or get enhanced by a talking dealer who isn't paying attention in the manner that he should. That's why I constantly emphasize, and why in our book,The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook we emphasized that once you are not dealing in the very small limits, there should be no extraneous talking while in the box.


Best wishes,

Mason

Rick:


Years ago I made a suggestion to the manager of a now closed Las Vegas poker room. I told him to take all the money that they were spending on their silly promotions, go find the 10 worse players in town, and give the money to them with the stipulation that they play in his poker room. This would then make the games great and attract lots of customers. Of course no one would listen to me and the room closed the next year.


Now some of you may think that the above is a joke, but it's not really. I believe that the number one attraction for poker are good poker games. So the question is, How do you get good poker games?


I believe that the best way to do this is to run the games very well. That is good dealers, good floor people, a good brush system, good food, and all the things I mentioned in my post above plus many more. I also suspect that if there is much walking in this game, at least some of it is attributable to these problems. Furthermore, even though this walking problem may not be occurring in the other games, it may spread to that, and then your cardroom will begin to lose customers.


In my book Poker Essays, Volume III there is a fairly lengthy essay called "Cardroom Problems." You should sit down with The Bike's management and go over this stuff with them. There is also an essay in my book Poker Essays, Volume II which I co-wrote with Donna Harris called "Cardroom Theory -- A Two Way Street --. My guess is that many cardroom executives are unfamiliar with these ideas and by studying these two essays they could greatly improve their cardrooms and thus their overall business. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect that the problem you're trying to address is actually a small part of a bigger problem.


By the way, I may be making a trip over your way in a week or two. If I do, for what it's worth, I'll be glad to sit down with you and any Bike Management people to discuss these ideas. So email me if there is any interest.


Also, we're kicking around the idea of starting an "In the Cardrooms" forum. If we did this and got some participation out of Cardroom management, it just might help make it a great success.


Best wishes,

Mason

First of all, thank you for answering my post. And rest assured that in high limit games, it's business as usual. This $10-$20 game in question was a unique situation where both players were just 'gambler' types who were happy I was adding to their experience.


Anyways, have you ever been a dealer at high limits?


If so, you might know that it can be quite dehumanizing, the way that some of the "high limit donators" treat you. Being called a 'fucking piece of shit' just because you didn't deal someone a winner for a thousand hands in a row, while the pit bosses look the other way and the pros at the table giggle because they would NEVER do anything to stop the big fish from getting their way -- well, it sucks after a while.


.. and sometimes, one needs to say something, ANYTHING, to remind himself that he is a human being, even if it's just a trivial comment like "Yeah, so and so sure is pretty", or "yeah, that was funny".


I make you a guarantee - if trouble players were disciplined even 1/10th as much as you want to discipline dealers, the dealing would get a LOT better.


Best wishes,


Charles.

No, I have never been a dealer. I worked hard in my life when I was much younger, got a good education, and worked in professional positions.


I do agree that some of the high limit players do treat dealers worse than they should. I also agree that it is inexcusable when players get mad at the dealer because they have lost a hand.


But it is my experience that most problems at the poker table in the middle and higher limits occur because a player over reacts to a dealer problem, usually caused by a talking dealer. While the player is wrong to over react, the problem would have never occurred in the first place if the dealer had done their job properly.


Finally, I have little sympathy for dealers who constantly complain about how bad they are treated. It takes a high school education and a few weeks of training to be able to do your job. It took me four years of college (in a tough major) and then over two years of graduate school before I could venture out in the real world of being a statistician/mathematician.


Furthermore, I can think of several instances where I was badly mistreated by people with a higher rank than I had. This includes an incident where I was chewed out by an under secretary of HUD because he didn't understand a key point of my presentation. I also worked for over six months straight, a minimum of 10 hours a day for seven days a week for the United States Census Bureau (when working on the 1980 Census) with no compensation for the extra time. I could give many other examples from my professional career that would make your dealer job appear like a cake walk.


But let me tell you something else, running your own business, and the pressures that go along with it, are much more difficult than working for someone else. (It can also be very rewarding when it turns out that your decisions were the right ones.)


So as you can see, I have very little sympathy for your problems. When I enter a cardroom, I often pay between $10 and $20 an hour to sit in a game. That's a lot more than many people make on their jobs. For this payment, I expect, and demand that dealers perform their jobs in a competent and efficient manner.


Furthermore, I have put my money where my mouth is and co-authored and published our book The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook. This is a book that I might break even on in about ten years, but am a big money loser at the moment. So far, we have sold almost 2,300 copies, and I have probably given away another 400 or so copies. I believe it is having an impact on dealer quality nationwide, and will continue to have even more impact as the years go by.


I hope this answers all your questions, but I'll come back and check again if you have any more.


Best wishes,

Mason

Ray,


You wrote: ”why not just take all the players money when he walks and let the house keep it. then maybe they will be satisfied.”


In numerous RGP threads and often on these forums (damn, I wish there was a good search engine for 2+2), I’ve argued that fairer and/or reduced collections would result in more games, more players beating the games (which gives hope to the masses), and ultimately more money for the house. But I’m new at the Bike and it will be a while before I have enough influence to make these arguments. Meanwhile, I’m trying to solve these and other problems that I’ve been assigned or where I have expertise.


”poker players especially the regulars are what make a casino. these are the people that start games and keep them going.”


You, the gentleman who posts as WCPP on RGP, I and many others are in complete agreement on this.


” the people that complain about shorthanded never keep games going so why cater solely to them at the expenese of your bread and butter.


I agree that what we call “nits” hate to play short (among other things) and these aren’t always the best customers. But most of the regulars still want a full or nearly full game at this limit, even if they otherwise are not nits.


”i am NOT defending the chronic walker thats never in his seat”


Most stud games in Los Angeles have the same problem. It is the player that, for example, plays twenty minutes, walks ten, plays fifteen, walks five, plays thirty, walks ten and so on. There is little incentive for him to stay and play. We are trying to come up with a way to solve this and are willing to look for fresh ideas here..


”but when you are playing ten hour or more sessions its wrong to be not allowed an hour for a meal and some 30 minute breaks.”


We aren’t talking about legit breaks during substantial sessions. This is not a problem.


’why the floormen get them dont they.”


The trend in working the floor is to get fewer and shorter breaks. At Hollywood Park I was on my feet for all but one hour of a eight hour shift (OK, maybe I took an extra ten minutes but often I was on my feet for four hours straight). It’s not fun, and I was in good enough shape to hike Mt. Whitney a few years ago.


Regards,


Rick

brad,


There is no doubt that time collection reduces walking.


Regards,


Rick

Mason,


A year or two ago we disagreed on this. In a nutshell, I felt a dealer could exchange pleasantries during the shuffle and this would be better than dealing in stony silence. You disagreed to the best of my recall.


But to an extent, given the lack of good judgment of many dealers, and the many different languages spoken by dealers in Los Angeles, finding and training to this fine line would be difficult, so perhaps a policy of silence would be best.


Regards,


Rick

Mason,


What a post title! I think we agree on many things in this thread and disagree only on the periphery. Also note that I just threw out these ideas regarding “penalty blinds” to stimulate comment. Stud isn’t my game and I have little feel for how practical this really is or has anything like it worked elsewhere.


You wrote”Years ago I made a suggestion to the manager of a now closed Las Vegas poker room. I told him to take all the money that they were spending on their silly promotions, go find the 10 worse players in town, and give the money to them with the stipulation that they play in his poker room. This would then make the games great and attract lots of customers. Of course no one would listen to me and the room closed the next year.


I suspect this room closed for many reasons if it is the one I’m thinking of. In Los Angeles, something similar to what you speak of are often called “Silent Props”. We now call them unmovable props and are moving away from using them. At the higher limits, the regulars inevitably find out who they are and resent when they are shut out of a game because of a paid player. Of course, in reality it is hard to find unmovable/silent props who are willing to get paid $20 and hour and will lose even more back. Fortunately, a precious few do exist. I doubt they read 2+2 ;-).


BTW, I found it amusing but not surprising that you were once a silent at the Bike (per your post a while back). In all seriousness, would you hire a tough player like you?


Also, there is a great thread in the Google archives of RGP that discusses the problems caused by silent props in the higher limits, and it specifically addresses the Bike. Email me at ricknebiolo@earthlink.net if you are interested in a link.


”Now some of you may think that the above is a joke, but it's not really. I believe that the number one attraction for poker are good poker games.”


We are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT!


”So the question is, How do you get good poker games? I believe that the best way to do this is to run the games very well. That is good dealers, good floor people, a good brush system, good food, and all the things I mentioned in my post above plus many more.


We are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT!


” I also suspect that if there is much walking in this game, at least some of it is attributable to these problems. Furthermore, even though this walking problem may not be occurring in the other games, it may spread to that, and then your cardroom will begin to lose customers.”


It is mostly attributable to the lack of financial penalty for walking. And it is a problem all over town and in all games, but more so in stud and collection games.


”In my book Poker Essays, Volume III there is a fairly lengthy essay called "Cardroom Problems." You should sit down with The Bike's management and go over this stuff with them. There is also an essay in my book Poker Essays, Volume II which I co-wrote with Donna Harris called "Cardroom Theory -- A Two Way Street --. My guess is that many cardroom executives are unfamiliar with these ideas and by studying these two essays they could greatly improve their cardrooms and thus their overall business. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect that the problem you're trying to address is actually a small part of a bigger problem.”


I have both these books (and your dealer handbook) and will make it a point to reread it soon.


”By the way, I may be making a trip over your way in a week or two. If I do, for what it's worth, I'll be glad to sit down with you and any Bike Management people to discuss these ideas. So email me if there is any interest.”


Of course, I’d be interested in getting together, as long as I could bring my student/friend who is a huge fan of your books (especially the Essay books). I’ll work on Bike Management if I get a chance ;-).


”Also, we're kicking around the idea of starting an "In the Cardrooms" forum. If we did this and got some participation out of Cardroom management, it just might help make it a great success.”


This forum might work. There are former managers who have participated extensively on RGP. One is Dan Sullivan, and he writes well and knows what he is doing IMO. It might also be a natural place to discuss rules and policies. Bob Ciaffone has contributed a lot in this area, but not in a forum where he would get the immediate feed back to fine tune his ideas. OTOH, working on rules and policy is a thankless job.


Regards,


Rick

>>> No, I have never been a dealer. I worked hard in my life when I was much younger, got a good education, and worked in professional positions.


I see, if I didn't know any better, I'd say that was a bit of a slap in the face, but it's so hard to tell over the internet, so I'll not comment on this, except to say that dealing is only my second job, as I too got a good education while I was dealing, to get in a position in life where dealing only happens a few weekend hours now and then.


I will say though that the tone of your reply seems to suggest that you feel that you are certainly superior to a poker dealer, therefore you are certainly right in what you say. It certainly seems implicit based on your belief that dealers are incapable of doing two things at once.


For all your education, though, the bottom line remains the same: If you haven't been a dealer at mid to high limits, you cannot imagine how dehumanizing it can be at times, and how just that brief moment of saying something that reaffirms your humanity can do wonders.


Plus, of course, as a player at low to mid limits, I can certainly appreciate the fact that a friendly, talking non-robot dealer that gets the conversation going is profitable to me, both in loosening up the gamblers with a friendly atmosphere and in driving the crybaby rocks away.


In other words, if I'm at a 4/8 game with 8 fish and Mason Malmuth, and the talking dealer sends Mason off to another game, that's sure not going to suck for me.


>>> But it is my experience that most problems at the poker table in the middle and higher limits occur because a player over reacts to a dealer problem, usually caused by a talking dealer.


Spoken like someone who has never dealt. Which is precisely why I asked the question /images/smile.gif


See, it's been my experience, as a dealer, that most of the problems occur at the poker table because poker players are angling or generally causing confusion in an effort to squeeze out some extra dimes.


In games where players announce their intentions clearly, don't use deliberately obfuscative gestures, and don't tarry proceedings by slamming their cards with temper tantrums and so forth, I can recite the Iliad and deal as good as I'll ever deal.


>>> While the player is wrong to over react, the problem would have never occurred in the first place if the dealer had done their job properly.


There are countless times where dealers do their job properly and the deliberately addling actions of the players cause the chaos.


I guarantee you that players can do more to decrease the number of errors in a poker game than the dealers can, and do it with FAR less effort.


>>> Finally, I have little sympathy for dealers who constantly complain about how bad they are treated. It takes a high school education and a few weeks of training to be able to do your job. It took me four years of college (in a tough major) and then over two years of graduate school before I could venture out in the real world of being a statistician/mathematician.


Are you trying to tell me that the uneducated nature of the poker position job suddenly obviates them from a very legitimate complaint, that working conditions are abhorrent? That sounds pretty elitist.


Regardless of it not taking a degree of some kind to deal poker, it's among one of the worst conditions to try and make a living in, both in terms of psychology and air quality.


If it only required a high school education and two weeks of training to get a job where people walk by on the street and jam needles under your fingernails, you'd be telling that person how easy they have it and that they have no right to complain about the job conditions, wouldn't you?


>>> Furthermore, I can think of several instances where I was badly mistreated by people with a higher rank than I had. This includes an incident where I was chewed out by an under secretary of HUD because he didn't understand a key point of my presentation. I also worked for over six months straight, a minimum of 10 hours a day for seven days a week for the United States Census Bureau (when working on the 1980 Census) with no compensation for the extra time. I could give many other examples from my professional career that would make your dealer job appear like a cake walk.


As a computer programmer by full-time trade, having had to put in my fair share of unpaid overtime to finish a project that was going to the Chief of Police the next day, I'm no stranger to pressures that are far greater than a poker dealer faces.


But you know what?


When I complete a project, I have several people congratulate me, instead of calling me a worthless piece of shit every 2 minutes or blow cigarette smoke in my face, and a happy user group that gives my supervisor feedback based on the quality of my work, not whether they're lucky that day or not.


>>> But let me tell you something else, running your own business, and the pressures that go along with it, are much more difficult than working for someone else. (It can also be very rewarding when it turns out that your decisions were the right ones.)


Agreed. My father is a self-made man, starting his own pool chemical company. His first office was a spare closet. 25 years later, he's literally a millionare.


As I respect greatly the work he's done, I too have respect for both you and David for how far you've gone.


>>> So as you can see, I have very little sympathy for your problems. When I enter a cardroom, I often pay between $10 and $20 an hour to sit in a game. That's a lot more than many people make on their jobs. For this payment, I expect, and demand that dealers perform their jobs in a competent and efficient manner.


No one is looking for sympathy, Mason. What I am looking for is you to realize is that the job, regardless of its uneducated nature , can be VERY dehumanizing, and those little comments, made during the shuffle or a second of dead air space, which don't slow the game down one bit, can do countless wonders to a psyche that takes an unending litany of abuse from a non-trivial part of the clientele.


Rest assured that when players act professional at the tables, the quality of dealing WILL go up through the roof.


>>> Furthermore, I have put my money where my mouth is and co-authored and published our book The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook. This is a book that I might break even on in about ten years, but am a big money loser at the moment. So far, we have sold almost 2,300 copies, and I have probably given away another 400 or so copies. I believe it is having an impact on dealer quality nationwide, and will continue to have even more impact as the years go by.


I have no doubt that it is an excellent book, and no doubt that it has improved the quality of dealing all over. I do take umbrage with your apparent belief that the problem lies virtually in its entirety with those snivelling uneducated ingrate dealers, however.


Many of the points, however, I certainly agree with, especially your opinion about tips, and how the pro players, who may not tip like the tourists, are just as much a facilitator of dealer revenue by virtue of making a daily game possible.


>>> I hope this answers all your questions, but I'll come back and check again if you have any more.


You'd best come back and check again. /images/smile.gif


Charles.

.. especially the way they just sit there and take it, hamstrung as they are. Kind of like beating a puppy dog.


Honestly, did you even read my posts? I think I make a really good case for why dealers, WITHOUT SLOWING THE GAME DOWN OR INDUCING ERRORS, will occasionally feel the need to add a humanizing comment.


C.

yes but if you ever make a mistake it will be held against you 100 times more if youre screwing around (like having a conversation) while you make it.


brad

Rick,


You said "It is mostly attributable to the lack of financial penalty for walking. And it is a problem all over town and in all games, but more so in stud and collection games."


Try putting yourself in the players position: Why am I up walking around? Hmmmm, my ass hurts, these chairs suck. Also the game is getting a little too tight for my liking, perhaps it will loosen up if shorthanded for a little while. That babe at the 20/40 HE game sure has a nice set of (edited), better get another look. Gee, I wish there was a good reason for me to be playing now instead of walking. Hey, I hear they are going to start penalizing me for taking a break. Suppose I'll just go over to the Commerce where they care about my business. If they would only offer me some kind of positive incentive instead I'd never leave the table. Maybe a cushion or better looking waitresses, or at least a dealer that would pay attention. No it will never happen here, all thay want to do is penalize me.


Are penalties good for business? Yes good for other peoples business.


Jimbo

I worked as a silent prop on weekends the first few months (in late 1984 and early 1985) that the Bike was open. Since the room quickly became a big success, they laid off almost all props after a few months.


MM

Jimbo,


In a drop game a customer who is occuping a seat without playing is doing so for free. Inaddition to that if he is not the only one walking, he is causing the house to collect less money from the entire table as a result of his walking. This is the problem from the houses point of view. From most players points of view, they would prefer that their game was fuller rather than shorter. So in order to be a competent manager of the top section I am trying to devise a way to keep the walking down to a reasonable amount for both the players and houses benifit. I don't believe a double ante penalty which gets contributed to the pot would be an unreasonable solution. I am open to any other suggestions as to how to encourage players from taking long walks. As it stands now it is "all you can walk for free" in a drop game. The reason we have not gone to per half an hour collections is because the players strongly object to this. I would very much prefer time collection to the drop. Players bounce back and forth between the drop games and the time games avoiding collections as well as the problem of walking in the drop games. Do you have any constructive suggestions for how to reward the players who don't walk or reasonably penalize those that do?


Scooter

Mason,


The reason people walk excessively is because they can do it for free! In time games they are paying for their seat regardless of whether they play in it or not. Frankly I would love to have four out of every nine players in a holdem game walking and paying collections. I prefer short handed and the walkers would pay plenty of collections to the house. By the way, I'm managing the cardroom that is in question. So I need to look at things from both the players and houses perspective. I am familiar with the problems of poor dealers, floormen, service, and the like, but I do not believe that any of these things contribute to the walking problem one ioda. It is quite simply a situation of "walk all that you want for free" If you have any reasonable solution to this problem I would be grateful if you would share it with me.


On the matter of dealers talking while in the box I must say that I agree with you to a great degree. I would simply say that I would like fully competant dealers, and if a dealer is capable of a little chatting between hands without slowing down the game or making mistakes then I would have no objection to this; however I find that in most cases where a floorman has been called over to a game for a decision, it is a result of a dealer incompetency. Either it is an out right dealer error or they simply weren't paying good enough attention to the game, thereby allowing a problem to arrise. I have always wondered why a casino would have a policy of first asking a dealer what happenned when they come over for a decision when in most cases if the dealer new what was happenning there wouldn't have been a problem at all. But I must disagree with your attitude of since they didn't have to do much to get the job they should have to put up with mistreatment by the players. This attitude show signs of a "God complex" which you normally find prevelant in doctors and lawyers. I think that regardless of how much education one has all people should be treated with dignaty and caring.


Scooter


PS: Please excuse the poor spelling as I have a terrible memory for this type of thing and am unwilling to spend the time to look up those words which I currently can't seem to remember how to spell.

"In my book Poker Essays, Volume III there is a fairly lengthy essay called "Cardroom Problems."


yes!


imagine the disappointment in buying that book and then finding a good 10-15 pages that were completely irrelevant and uninteresting to the majority of the people who bought it. nice one.

Scooter,


Other than allowing someone to play over a player whom is walking after one missed blind and allowing that player to play at least half an hour I cannot think of a monetary penalty that would accomplish your goal. This time-out "penalty" will probably work wonders for the problem walkers. People seem to take possession of a seat mentally whether at the table or not.


This would help keep the game full as well as discourage walking without offending them "too" much. In my opinion that is a fine line but this may work. Whether or not it is practical in your cardroom or not would certainly be for you to determine.


You said "In a drop game a customer who is occuping a seat without playing is doing so for free."

I might just mention that "not playing" for free is just like "not eating" for free or "not flying" for free. Very few people are willing to pay extra for NOT doing something. Perhaps it will help from your perspective if you look at the problem/solution in this manner.


Best of luck solving your problem and I would like to hear what changes you choose to implement to curb this problem and how successful they are. I also would like to Thank you for asking for my input on this matter.


On an additional note here is what I probably would do in your position.

1) Determine two or three solutions acceptable to you.

2)Elicit opinions from the players, both the walkers and the sitters. Be clear as to outlining the problem from your perspective as well as from the sitters perspective.

3)Clarify the point that one of these solutions will be implemented in the near future.

4)Do consider the players preferences when making your final decision.

5)Implement your decision and enforce it unilaterally.

6)Follow up with another players poll in about 2 weeks while evaluating it's success towards achieving your stated goals.


Jimbo

If you actually think that way, then you are being pretty silly. If you're an expert player, think about how much every year poorly run cardrooms cost you.


MM

'The reason we have not gone to per half an hour collections is because the players strongly object to this.'


i would say


mandatory


a) institute 3rd man walking rule


b) enforce the pick up rule tightly, whatever it is (20 minutes, 30 minutes)


optional


c) perhaps enforce a new rule where after 1 or 2 walks you can pick a guy up after 5 or 10 minutes. (obviously you need player support and self-policing for this to work.)


brad

Jimbo,


Scooter wrote above: "In a drop game a customer who is occuping a seat without playing is doing so for free."


You responded: “I might just mention that "not playing" for free is just like "not eating" for free or "not flying" for free. Very few people are willing to pay extra for NOT doing something. Perhaps it will help from your perspective if you look at the problem/solution in this manner.”


When players walk excessively, they are “doing something.” They annoy the vast majority of other players who don’t like to play short. This often causes a chain reaction where they now walk, bringing an otherwise good game to a halt.


You also wrote: ”On an additional note here is what I probably would do in your position.

1) Determine two or three solutions acceptable to you.

2)Elicit opinions from the players, both the walkers and the sitters. Be clear as to outlining the problem from your perspective as well as from the sitters perspective.

3)Clarify the point that one of these solutions will be implemented in the near future.

4)Do consider the players preferences when making your final decision.

5)Implement your decision and enforce it unilaterally.

6)Follow up with another players poll in about 2 weeks while evaluating it's success towards achieving your stated goals.”


I’m sure Scooter would agree this is great advice. Thanks.


Regards,


Rick

Scooter,


You wrote: ”PS: Please excuse the poor spelling as I have a terrible memory for this type of thing and am unwilling to spend the time to look up those words which I currently can't seem to remember how to spell.”


Don’t worry about spelling. There are no “spelling police-nits” on this forum.


But if you want to spell correctly but can’t do what I do (since I can’t spell either). Create a MS Word document called “Spell Check Scratch Pad” (or whatever) on your desktop (you can also drag the shortcut to the document to your Start Menu so it is always instantly available). Write your posts in this document and let Word figure out how to spell for you. Then “Select All” from the Edit menu and use the right mouse to copy and paste the highlighted text into the 2+2 dialog box.


However, if you want to learn how to italicize and bold selected text or perform other tricks you need to give me an evening off /images/smile.gif


Regards,


Rick

Hi Rick,


I am pleased I finally wrote something worthy of your response. I truly respect your poker acumen and read all your posts throughout this forum. I would like to address something you wrote in your reply to me.


You said "When players walk excessively, they are “doing something.” They annoy the vast majority of other players who don’t like to play short. This often causes a chain reaction where they now walk, bringing an otherwise good game to a halt." Seems to me if this is true you will have little or no problem at all resolving the unfortunate circumstances . You obviously must please the vast majority so make the punishment as strict as you possibly can for the chronic walkers. I was under the impression throughout this thread that a majority of the players walked initially due to some unknown set of circumstances (other than the fact that it was free). This perspective casts a new light on my opinion. As The Beet Man on RGP might say "Smother them in onions and cook them till they're blue".


Rick, just so that you know, I would be classified as a "sitter" rather than a "walker". It does take a great deal more to annoy me than a few walkers but then my mother always told me I was "special". /images/smile.gif I time my breaks carefully and return to the table promptly always notifying the dealer as to my immediate future intentions (as in deal me in or deal around me). Just did not want you to think I was arguing the walkers points from a biased perspective but was trying to remain neutral.


Hey, if you implement any of my suggestions successfully does that mean I get a "free walk in the park" pass at the Bike?


Jimbo

JIMBO,


You wrote: ”I am pleased I finally wrote something worthy of your response. I truly respect your poker acumen and read all your posts throughout this forum. I would like to address something you wrote in your reply to me.”


You have written lots worthy of response. But the forum has become so broad (I have at least twelve bookmarked forums) and busy I sometimes lose track and can’t keep up with or respond to all the good stuff that is posted here.


I’m not a stud player (although if you live in Los Angeles and play middle limits, the widely spread 20/40 stud H/L should be your second best game, not the tiny Omaha H/L or less popular stud high), but I think the double ante idea may have merit.


I’m not sure how many missed hands should trigger the penalty. The penalty isn’t too large (one ante, perhaps two for long breaks) and it goes to the pot. Perhaps you can provide the players who sit and keep the game going a partial role in enforcing the penalty (e.g., “Dealer, seat six has missed two/three/four/five hands – give him a penalty button!”) Still, keeping track of missed hands can get tricky but it is solvable. I like missing a moving deal button (described in one of my posts above) most – it keeps people aware that if they are going to miss a few hands, they can’t do it when the button is on their right without penalty.


You continued: ”You obviously must please the vast majority so make the punishment as strict as you possibly can for the chronic walkers. I was under the impression throughout this thread that a majority of the players walked initially due to some unknown set of circumstances (other than the fact that it was free).”


Getting the incessant walkers to walk less in fact would please the vast majority of players. And in stud with collection, they walk because there is no penalty and they don’t seem to mind annoying the other players.


”This perspective casts a new light on my opinion. As The Beet Man on RGP might say "Smother them in onions and cook them till they're blue".


Did you know the Beet Man actually has his own newsgroup that collects all his posts!


”Rick, just so that you know, I would be classified as a "sitter" rather than a "walker".


Me too. I miss fewer blinds in the average month than most players do in the average day. But I get up to stretch my legs without missing a hand all the time. People at another table might think I often miss blinds but I don’t.


”It does take a great deal more to annoy me than a few walkers but then my mother always told me I was "special". I time my breaks carefully and return to the table promptly always notifying the dealer as to my immediate future intentions (as in deal me in or deal around me). “


Players like you are very courteous and worth three typical players. Thanks!


It might be a good idea to put some of these or other ideas up on the stud forum in order to fine-tune them. This thread is already buried. Then I like your idea of running the plan by the regular players. Since the “sitters who don’t like short games” outnumber the walkers, it might have more support than we would imagine.


Note that the penalty does not have to be larger than an extra ante to make the walker aware that he has done something to hurt the game. Just making the walkers aware might get them to walk less.


”Hey, if you implement any of my suggestions successfully does that mean I get a "free walk in the park" pass at the Bike?”


No but the food from the kitchen is free anyway for yellow chip players and the Bike is a comfortable place to play. How about me buying you a cocktail or one of those great chocolate mash cookies from the deli?


Regards,


Rick