AQo from the blind

[btspider]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds, &lt;CUT&gt;

Felt like a raise or fold situation. I'm drawing to overcards with poor position unless a raise isolates the SB.

[Bez]

I'd prefer a raise due to the pot size.

[SoCalPat]

Badly misplayed on the flop.

The PF raise was good. You're at worst a coin-flip situation here, as hands that dominate yours (AA,KK,QQ and AK) would've put in a raise. You probably have the best hand here.

Fold the flop? You're getting 13-1 here, and presuming your six overcard outs are clean (not a longshot given this board), you're 7-1 to improve on the turn. Easy call ... even out of position. In fact, a raise could likely buy you some outs here (you'd love to get hands like A2 and Q3 to fold, if they're out there).

Also, folding for one bet on the flop when you're the preflop raiser is really bad ... you've just set yourself up to have people run you off hands with nothing. Most players aren't attentive at these limits, but that type of move raises everyone's eyes.

[Brian]

Hi spider,

I disagree with the others. I think that your Flop fold is a very good one and quite disciplined. The draw that I see misplayed most post-Flop are overcards, and I feel that in general, most people take them too far post-Flop. Drawing to one pair is not exciting at all, as even if you aren't already dead in the water to two pair or a set on this Flop, many of your Ace outs (and sometimes eveen Queen outs) could give someone a better hand, such as A6, A3, or A2. On top of that, you are drawing to a very vulnerable holding anyways: one pair. Drawing to overcards is very different from drawing to, say, a gutshot; even though you have 6 outs versus 4 outs when drawing to overcards vs. drawing to a gutshot, you will usually win when you make your gutshot. This is very far from true with overcards. Hitting an Ace or Queen on the Turn will leave you susceptible to many redraws on the River, as you won't be all that happy about seeing a 4 or a 5.

Simply put, you don't have a backdoor Flush draw, you are the first one to have to call the bet (meaning there are many players left to act behind you who may raise), you're drawing to a vulnerable hand which may not even be good if you hit, and when you do hit your hand your opponents have many redraws vs. you. While the pot is offering you almost double what you "need" to hit your hand, I think you would need to be getting better odds yet and/or have a backdoor Flush draw to make this worth a call. Change the Flop slightly, change who bet, etc., and that may swing it into a call. But for christ's sakes, the SB is leading out into the whole field after a pre-Flop raise. Theres a decent chance he has a hand that is better than one pair at the moment, and you don't even have one pair. You're drawing to one pair. Great fold.

-Brian

[Goon2]

Bah!

Fold.

Your overcards are worth a total of 3 outs. There needs to be 14.5 SB in the pot to even call. There are only 13. There is no compelling reason to raise -- even if you "hit" your outs, you can't be certain they're good, which is why you need 14.5 bets in the pot to continue.

Fold!

[btspider]

good responses. it felt a bit weak doing it and my relative and absolute positions swung a normally automatic call/raise situation to a fold.

results:
everyone folded on the flop and SB took it down right there.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
You're at worst a coin-flip situation here, as hands that dominate yours (AA,KK,QQ and AK)

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you even thinking about this? Way better things to be running through your head when you raise.

[RED_RAIN]

Brian usually we are on target.

This fold sucks. For image, for odds, you can pick.

Raise this freaking flop bet from SB. You need to get this heads up to limit the field.

Your pairs are likely good. If he 3 bets you on the flop, then you still have odds to call a bet on the turn but I would like to see a Queen. If he just calls, I consider my overs to be clean. The SB likely has a gutshot, made straight, or a mere pair. Maybe a set, but often will tell you by 3 betting this flop.

Regardless if you raise, get 3 bet by anyone from behind, still call for one more, fold on turn non improved if 3 bet from someone other than SB.

If you raise, just called, take a free card on the turn. If someone calls 2 cold behind, bets the turn, hopefully SB will either check/raise so you can fold or just call the turn bet and fold on river non-improved.

This wasn't a good fold IMO. This thinking is off I believe. Especially at this level.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
Your pairs are likely good.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think this? The SB is leading into the pre-Flop raiser and 4 others. Sometimes he's a jerk-off with absolutely nothing, and sometimes he has a hand like 77 against which your folding would be a mistake. But, oftentimes, he will have two pair, a set, or even a flopped straight. And, even if he doesn't, there are 4 players left to act behind you who may still raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Raise this freaking flop bet from SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just chip-spewing. I would much prefer a call to a raise. Raising isn't going to do anything for cleaning up your outs. You aren't going to fold out the hands that you want to like A2.

[ QUOTE ]
If he 3 bets you on the flop, then you still have odds to call a bet on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

This thinking really confuses me. Okay, the SB has led into a field of 5, including the pre-Flop raiser, and is now 3-betting it back to him. So you're calling a bet on the Turn "because you have the odds to"? Does it not cross your mind that if you haven't improved on the Turn theres a very good chance that you are drawing completely stone cold dead?

[ QUOTE ]
This wasn't a good fold IMO. This thinking is off I believe. Especially at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of what limit you are playing at, overcards are not a very strong draw. SSH even recommends to treat them as a weak draw whenever someone leads into you in a multiway pot. If I were to try to comprise a situation in my head to illustrate "worst case scenario" to be in when you hold two overcards, I would be hard-pressed to come up with one better than this. In other words, with this Flop, and the SB leading into you, this is pretty much worst case scenario for overcards. It doesn't really get any worse than this. There are 4 players left to act behind you, SB is showing a lot of strength by leading into you and them, the board is highly co-ordinated meaning that even if you hit on the Turn there will be many re-draws out there for the River, and sometimes your overcards won't even be clean due to post-Flop reverse domination.

This fold sucks. For image, for odds, you can pick

[/ QUOTE ]

Image shmimage. If it's the right fold, I'm going to make it, regardless of what it may do to my "image". I know there are many pros sitting at the .5/1 level constantly paying attention to who raises pre-Flop and then folds the Flop, but I'm willing to let them have the best of me here, as if they can find a way to exploit it, more power to them. As far as odds go, you need to start thinking outside of strict odds when deciding whether to make calls. Sometimes, you can make a call without having the proper odds due to implied odds. And, sometimes, you have to have much, much more than needed to make a call due to reverse implied odds. Here, you are getting 13:1. You "need" 7:1 to call, meaning you are getting almost double what you need in order to call. [b]However, your draw is extremely weak, often won't win when it hits, can often be re-drawn on the River, and there may (often) will be a raise behind you, cutting your odds down to almost bare minimum. Fold, fold, fold.

-Brian

[nepenthe]

FWIW, I agree with Brian that this fold is a good and judicious one without a specific read. Well done.

[RED_RAIN]

For arguements sake, you don't think A6 would bet out here? Don't know how many times I've seen that.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
For arguements sake, you don't think A6 would bet out here? Don't know how many times I've seen that.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, he left that out and I think its more likely than two pair, sets, straights, etc. if he's got A6, i'm reverse dominated.

[Kips Bay Kid]

I like the fold as well.

If he did have A6 or A2 or A3 for that matter would it make you any more confident when an A hits on the turn?

[Brian]

Sure, A6 would also be in the range of hands he would bet with. What is your point? That's a bad thing.

-Brian

[cab4656]

Brian, I think your advice is real good. I'm no expert, but I think it's something that everyone should read. I am always cautious when someone bets into me after I raised preflop, like in the hand posted here (with a large field). But I never thought about it in the detail you explained. Thanks.

[helpmeout]

This is an interesting hand, I think I have to agree with the fold only because of the potential straight.

A 4 or a 5 could really hurt you. I also dont like playing with just overcards, having a backdoor straight or flush draw makes it so much easier.

[flexus]

I agree with brian here. Anf I am definetly not one of those who never plays overcard draws.

I think the risk of a raise behind is a very very important to consider in these type situations.

As someone said, this is pretty much the worst case scenario for overcards to the flop.

[btspider]

I thought this was a good hand to compare to the classic A6o 236 rainbow flop hand. I humbly PM'd Ed Miller the topic link and a quick summary of the action. He was kind enough to respond to the summary and said "The pot is sort of big, but everything else in this hand is very unfavorable for you. I'd fold."

[bicyclekick]

Raise! Are you kidding me?