Terrorist hoedown

[vulturesrow]

I expect at any time to hear from the moderate peace loving Muslims how this gathering (http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD77804) is wrong to celebrate 9/11 bombings.

[nicky g]

Why should moderate Muslims be obliged to denounce every action by an extremist group? Do you spend your time denouncing all the activities of extremist US groups? WHen was your last post denouncing the KKK or whoever?

[vulturesrow]

Being that the moderate Muslim moderate crowd has been for the most part a chorus of silence regarding the activities of their extremist brethren, I would think that this would be a great time for them to speak. Im not saying they should denounce everything. Just seems a gathering a extremists who praise bin Laden and the 9/11 bombings would be a great chance for the moderates to speak out.

[nicky g]

"Being that the moderate Muslim moderate crowd has been for the most part a chorus of silence regarding the activities of their extremist brethren, I would think that this would be a great time for them to speak. Im not saying they should denounce everything. Just seems a gathering a extremists who praise bin Laden and the 9/11 bombings would be a great chance for the moderates to speak out. "

Ridiculous. There has been no such chorus of silence; moderate Muslims and even Muslims few here would regard as moderate (political Islamists etc) have repeatedly condemned major recent terrorist attacks and violence. There's no reason for them to speak up every time some tiny fringe group does something stupid, although I'm sure local ones will. The usual uninformed Islamophobic garbage.

[Duke]

They're not moderates because they're opposed to any of that ridiculousness. They're moderates because they're apathetic. That'll hinder them as far as speaking out against anything goes.

In my opinion, apathy from any religious group is a good thing. When they take their ill-conceived notions and combine that with genuine drive, you get things like the Crusades and 9-11. Once in a while some barbarians will destroy a library and set science back 2000 years.

~D

[vulturesrow]

Well I cant speak for the UK, so if they have, good on them. In the states, I have seen very little other than immediately following 9/11.

Let me further answer your previous question. Lets say there is a group of extremist Christians that were responsible for some extreme acts of terrorism. Furthermore lets say these acts were poisoning the public view of Christianity. I certainly would take every chance I could to denounce those responsible and defend "moderate" Christianity.

[ QUOTE ]
The usual uninformed Islamophobic garbage

[/ QUOTE ]

Uninformed, hardly. Ill cede that I was posting with a USA centric viewpoint. Go figure, I live in the USA. Islamophobic, most definitely. Of course Islamophobic doesnt equal Muslim hater, although Im sure this sentence will earn at least one accusation of bigotry. What group of people has been responsible for more acts of terrorism in the past few years? And with minimal outcry,at least in my observations, from the moderates.

Its funny, I had two good friends in college that were both exchange students from the Middle East, one from Lebanon and one from Jordan. I had some very enlightening conversations about Islam. At the time though, I never really brought up the terrorism question, because at the time it was isolated events and seemed to be clearly the work of a few extremists. In retrospect I wish I had asked. Unfortunately I have lost contact with both of them since they returned to their respective countries.

[MMMMMM]

"Why should moderate Muslims be obliged to denounce every action by an extremist group? Do you spend your time denouncing all the activities of extremist US groups? WHen was your last post denouncing the KKK or whoever?"


I'd just like to point out that al-Mahajiroun is even more worthy of denunciation than is the KKK today. The KKK today does not call for slaughtering blacks, but Al-Mahajiroun is publicly advocating the slaughtering of infidels. Seems to me that as deplorable and ignorant as the KKK is, al-Mahajiroun is publicly inciting to murder, and is much worse.

Sheikh Bakri has done this before, publicly stating that killing infidels is perfectly fine because they are kafir, that is, like cattle (the Islamist argument being that the life of the unbeliever has no value in the eyes of Allah).

In the larger perspective, extremist Western or Christian groups today are not nearly so violent nor aggressive as extremist Muslim groups.

Once again, it ISN'T entirely all relative.

I think you are right that moderate Muslims are not "obligated" to denounce such things. I'm just pointing out that al-Mahajiroun is considerably more worthy of denunciation than today's KKK, so Vulturesrow has somewhat of a point. Also, I don't feel that Islamic denunciations of such advocacies, or even of terror killings, have been truly commensurate overall with the level or breadth of denunciations that would be appropriate--but that is just my subjective impression.

[Utah]

I found your thinking on this very interesting. However, I dont think I agree with it for two reasons.

First, we all have a greater responsibility to the common good and your "not my problem" line of thinking violates that principle. If one can do good, then one should in most instances.

Second, the connection between so called extreme muslims and moderate muslims seems to be fairly tight. Please correct me if I am wrong, but dont the so called moderates support the use of terrorism against Israeli civilians?

[MMMMMM]

"Second, the connection between so called extreme muslims and moderate muslims seems to be fairly tight."

This is my impression as well.

[nicky g]

"Well I cant speak for the UK, so if they have, good on them. In the states, I have seen very little other than immediately following 9/11. "

So you want US Muslims to denounce a meeting of fringe lunatics in the UK? Most will never even hear about it.

Your original post didn't specify you were talking about US Muslims.

"Let me further answer your previous question. Lets say there is a group of extremist Christians that were responsible for some extreme acts of terrorism. Furthermore lets say these acts were poisoning the public view of Christianity. I certainly would take every chance I could to denounce those responsible and defend "moderate" Christianity."

Muslims across the world have done and do do this. You seem to want them to take it to absurd lengths.

[nicky g]

"I'd just like to point out that al-Mahajiroun is even more worthy of denunciation than is the KKK today. The KKK today does not call for slaughtering blacks, but Al-Mahajiroun is publicly advocating the slaughtering of infidels. Seems to me that as deplorable and ignorant as the KKK is, al-Mahajiroun is publicly inciting to murder, and is much worse."

True enough, although the KKK has been responsible for far more deaths than AM has. It's also worth pointing out that the KKK is a much bigger organisation than AM.

[nicky g]

"First, we all have a greater responsibility to the common good and your "not my problem" line of thinking violates that principle. If one can do good, then one should in most instances."

I don't understand what you mean by the "not my problem" thing. As for doing good, sure, but you can;t have everyone routinely denoucning everything frigen groups do in their names. The major moderate organisations routinely condemn terrorist attacks; that seems plenty to me.

"Second, the connection between so called extreme muslims and moderate muslims seems to be fairly tight."

I don't agree.

"Please correct me if I am wrong, but dont the so called moderates support the use of terrorism against Israeli civilians? "

Depends on who you mean. Some popular Islamist figures argue they are justified because Israel is a militarised society and all adults are effectively army reservists. Many deplore them; for instance, the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar mosque, the highest authroity in Sunni Islam.
Cleric condemns suicide attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3059365.stm)

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Muslims across the world have done and do do this. You seem to want them to take it to absurd lengths.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly do want them to go extreme lengths. If someone like myself, that is a person that spends an extensive amount of time reading all sorts of news and periodicals, probably much more so than your average citizen, still has a perception that the moderates arent really speaking out against terrorists, than they havent gotten their message across.

Incidentally, mind posting some links that illustrate Muslims across the world have done and do do this. ?

[nicky g]

"Incidentally, mind posting some links that illustrate Muslims across the world have done and do do this. ? "



See my previous post for the Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar's condemnation of suicide attacks.


Rally by Muslims knocks terrorism (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0426terror-rally26.html)

Religious Leaders Seek End To Terror (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1577509.stm)

Muslim leaders condemn killers (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1297664,00.html)


Muslim Reactions to September 11th (http://www.crescentlife.com/heal%20the%20world/muslim_reactions_to_sept_11.htm)

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks (http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php)

Nick Berg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg)
" the Muslim world, the killing of Berg was strongly condemned. Scholars at Al-Azhar University in Cairo issued a declaration of condemnation [8] (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2004-05/12/article08.shtml), as did numerous Muslim groups in the West including the Council on American-Islamic Relations. Shiite Islamist terrorist group Hezbollah and Palestinian nationalist terrorist group Hamas denounced the murder. Hezbollah issued a statement calling it a "horrible act that does an immense wrong to Islam and Muslims by a group which falsely pretends to follow the precepts of the religion of pardon."

Iraqi conservative and fundamentalist religious leaders also denounced the killing. Muthanna al-Dhari, a member of the Board of Muslim Clergy, said the act "does disservice to our religion and our cause. Even if he was military personnel he should be treated as a prisoner who, according to Shari'ah, must not be killed." Iyaad Samarrai of the Islamic Party commented "This is absolutely wrong. Islam does prohibit the killing or the maltreatment of prisoners." [9] (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2004-05/12/article03.shtml)"



From the "Muslim reactions":

Contempt for September 11th Terrorist Attacks by Muslims
American Muslim organizations, individual scholars as well as International Muslim organizations, scholars and representatives of countries with a Muslim majority jointly and individually condemned the 9/11 attacks.

In a Joint Statement by American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society, Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:
"American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."

Muslims Against Terrorism (MAT):
“As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam.”

Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt:
“We strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. We condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.” (Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 - 19 September 2001)

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt: “Attacking innocent people is not courageous; it is stupid and will be punished on the Day of Judgment.... It is not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom; it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.” (Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001)

Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, Head of the Directorate of Religious Affairs of Turkey:
“Any human being, regardless of his ethnic and religious origin, will never think of carrying out such a violent, evil attack. Whatever its purpose is, this action cannot be justified and tolerated.” (September 21, 2001)

Ayatollah Ali Khamene'i, Supreme jurist-ruler of Iran:
“Killing of people, in any place and with any kind of weapons…. carried out by any organization, country or individual is condemned. ... It makes no difference whether such massacres happen in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Deir Yassin, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq or in New York and Washington. (Islamic Republic News Agency, September 16, 2001.

Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkey:
“Islam does not encourage any kind of terrorism; in fact, it denounces it. Those who use terrorism in the name of Islam, in fact, have no other faculty except ignorance and hatred.”

Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, U.S:
The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people. Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims' relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people.

Abdal-Hakim Murad, Britain:
Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Qur'anic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures. ("The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists,"

Hamza Yusuf, U.S:
Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs or Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. ... You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, "Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, "Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil. (San Jose Mercury News, September 15, 2001. )

Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan:
It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people. (Cited in the New York Times, September 28, 2001.)

King Abdullah II, Jordan:
What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in. (cited in the Middle East Times, September 28, 2001.)

Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, U.S.:ISCA
We categorically condemn yesterday's hijackings and attacks against the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and all other targets. From coast to coast, we join our neighbors, co-workers and friends across ethnic, cultural and religious lines in mourning the devastating loss of precious life, which Islam holds as sacred. We pray for the thousands of innocent victims, for their families, for law enforcement and emergency workers, for stranded travelers, and for all whose confidence and security have been shaken. We pray that God's Infinite Mercy reaches us all. We join the US Congress in declaring today a day of mourning and also call on the entire faith community of America to spend the day in prayer for the victims and their families who so tragically died. All of our centers across the world will observe three minutes of silence tonight at our sunset prayer. We stand with the administration and law enforcement agencies in support of discovering the persons responsible and bringing them to justice. We encourage whoever is able to donate generously both blood and money to local chapters of the Red Cross...ISCA has many times warned the nation to guard against the possibility of such actions and reiterates its condemnation of all terrorism, whether ideological, geographical, cultural or religious."

In July, the American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC), made up of the nation's four most prominent Muslim political advocacy groups - American Muslim Alliance (AMA), American Muslim Council (AMC), Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), and Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) - called on all faith communities to participate in a national "Day of Unity" by opening houses of worship on September 11, 2002, for interfaith visits, prayers, congregational exchanges, and other activities intended to foster national unity and religious tolerance.

[Utah]

I don't understand what you mean by the "not my problem" thing.

I mean that a group or individual says - "hey its not my offical responsibility. Therefore, I am going to do nothing".

The major moderate organisations routinely condemn terrorist attacks; that seems plenty to me.

I watch and read a lot of news and I have yet to see a strong comdemnation here in the U.S. Your article is the first read condemnation I have seen. I wonder if the news converage is just that different here in the U.S. or if something else is going on.

"Second, the connection between so called extreme muslims and moderate muslims seems to be fairly tight."

I don't agree.

First, the concept of jihad is not a radical and fringe concept. Second, many muslims will accept terrorism in certain circumstances as per my example. The reservist arguement doesnt hold because they attack children as well. Even if some denounce terrorism, as per your article, many accept it as well. Thus, the connection is there between moderates and extremists.

[nicky g]

"I mean that a group or individual says - "hey its not my offical responsibility. Therefore, I am going to do nothing"."

That is not what I meant. I meant you can't and shouldn't expect Muslims to spend all their time finding out about and denouncing the activities of every fringe extremist.

"I watch and read a lot of news and I have yet to see a strong comdemnation here in the U.S. Your article is the first read condemnation I have seen. I wonder if the news converage is just that different here in the U.S. or if something else is going on."

Vulturesrow said the same thing. Either you are watching the wrong thing or the news isn't reporting very much. See the list at the bottom of condemnations by the Council for American Islamic relations for example.

" The reservist arguement doesnt hold because they attack children as well."

I'm not suggesting they're right.

"First, the concept of jihad is not a radical and fringe concept. "

No but the vast majority of Muslims do not interpret the concept of jihad the way bin Laden and co do.

"Even if some denounce terrorism, as per your article, many accept it as well. Thus, the connection is there between moderates and extremists. "

More denounce it than accept it.



American Muslims Condemn Riyadh Bombings - May 23, 2003

CAIR Condemns Attack On U.S. Medical Personnel In Yemen - December 30, 2002

CAIR Condemns Attack on US Diplomatic Convoy in Gaza - October 15, 2003

CAIR Condemns Haifa Suicide Bombing - 10/04/2003

CAIR Condemns Iraq Church Bombings - Sunday, August 01, 2004

CAIR Condemns Murder of American in Saudi Arabia - Friday, June 18, 2004

CAIR Joins 'Call to Action' on Darfur Crisis - Tuesday, August 03, 2004

CAIR condemns Istanbul bombings - Thursday, November 20, 2003

CAIR condemns attacks on civilians - Thursday, March 28, 2002

CAIR condemns hostage-taking by Iraqi insurgents, calls for release of hostages - 4/9/2004

CAIR condemns killings in Iraq, Pakistan - Tuesday, March 02, 2004

CAIR condemns murder of American in Iraq - 5/11/2004

CAIR condemns mutilation of bodies in Iraq - Wednesday, March 31, 2004

CAIR statements on the events of September 11 - (various dates)

CAIR welcomes capture of Saddam Hussein - Sunday, December 14, 2003

CAIR-CAN Condemns Anti-Semitic Graffiti - August 25, 2004

CAIR-CAN Condemns Vandalism of Jewish Homes in Toronto - Friday, March 19, 2004

CAIR-CAN condemns Daniel Pearl killing - Friday, February 22, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns bomb attack on Passover celebration in Israel - Thursday, March 28, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns firebomb attack of Jewish school - Tuesday, April 06, 2004

CAIR-CAN condemns gang-rape of woman in Pakistan by tribal court - Friday, July 05, 2002

CAIR-CAN condemns killing of innocent Christian worshippers in Pakistan - Tuesday, October 30, 2001

CAIR-CAN: There is no justification for attacks on innocent people - Thursday, November 14, 2002

CAIR: American Muslims Condemn Sectarian Mosque Bombing - 07/05/2003

Canadian Muslim scholars reject Bin Laden's calls for jihad - Monday, October 15, 2001

Canadian Muslims Condemn Recent Khadr Comments That Excuse Terrorism - Friday, March 05, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn 9/11 terrorist attacks - Tuesday, September 11, 2001

Canadian Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Monday, January 12, 2004

Canadian Muslims condemn church attack in Pakistan - Sunday, March 17, 2002

Canadian Muslims condemn vandalism of synagogues - Friday, April 12, 2002

Muslims Condemn Philippines Airport Bombing - Tuesday, March 04 2003

Muslims Offer Help for Victims of Terrorist Attacks - 9/11/01

Muslims condemn anti-Jewish article - Wednesday, January 07, 2004

Muslims condemn anti-Semitic article - 11/8/2002

Muslims to hold 9/11 vigil at U.S. Capitol - Thursday, August 28, 2003

Muslims urged to donate for D.C. sniper victims - Wednesday, October 16, 2002

U.S. Muslim Group Condemns bin Laden Videotape - 09/11/2003

U.S. Muslims Condemn Madrid Bombings - 03/11/2004

U.S. Muslims call for 9/11/02 "Day of Unity and Prayer" - Tuesday, July 23, 2002

US Muslims Condemn Terrorism in Ad Campaign - March 8, 2003



Special: Muslims in the Military

[vulturesrow]

NickyG,

Sorry but anything from CAIR is suspect. They have links to known terrorist groups, Hamas among others. I regard their "condmenations" as disingenuous propaganda. Feel free to disagree, as you probably will. I stick to my assertion that by and large, moderate Muslims have not done enough to distance themselves from the mass of extremist Muslims.

[nicky g]

And the rest? It seems nothing short of every single Muslim in the world condemning every single suspect incident involving Muslims on national television five times a day will satisfy you.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
And the rest? It seems nothing short of every single Muslim in the world condemning every single suspect incident involving Muslims on national television five times a day will satisfy you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent use of hyperbole, well done. I dont think I ever said there are no Muslims that have come out against the extremists. That being said, I dont think the moderates have done a very good job of distancing themselves from the fringe groups, especially here in the US. Maybe the news isnt reporting it, maybe it isnt happening, I dont know. Maybe this particular gathering that I posted about isnt the best example of where to expect moderate opposition. But I think it has been sorely lacking in general.

[MMMMMM]

I agree with this.

Recently the terrorist atrocities in Russia have drawn significantly increased condemnation from Muslims worldwide. Apparently holding children hostage, bayoneting a child when he asked for a glass of water, and shooting other children in the back as they tried to flee, was all too much for many Muslims to stomach--and probably also helped increase the sense that the jihad/terror concept is going so far overboard in practice as to be detrimental in the political sense.

CAIR is a disingenuous organization whose ties to terror groups are well-known, and whose primary purpose seems to be to scream "Islamophobia!" at every chance it gets. If CAIR put one-hundredth the effort into condemning terror groups and attacks as it does into crying Islamophobia, it might actually be more than a stealth political means to an end (which end is CAIR's goal of eventually officially Islamizing the United States of America).

All in all, the terror attacks worldwide have been too many and the protests from Muslims too few, in my opinion--the protests have not been commensurate. The latest developments are a step in the right direction, but there are still far too many Muslims who either publicly or tacitly support terror attacks. If you don't believe this, look up what percentage approve of bin-Laden. Heck the citizens one of those countries (forget which one), when polled, chose bin-Laden as the man they would most trust as their leader or as world leader. There is a long way yet to go before the average Muslim in the world takes a firm stance against terror--I'm not saying the average Muslim supports it, but a great many certainly don't disfavor it--there is a wide swath who tacitly support it or at least think it is OK.

[Utah]

I never like to justify actions such as this. However, the war in Chechnya is far from a one way street. Its not like the Chechens are picking on the poor Russians. The Russians have slaughtered an unbelievable number of Chechens. In fact, this little atrocity is nothing compared to what the Russians have down. The difference is only that this one was brought into our homes via television and the interent.

http://www.slate.com/id/2106287/

[mmcd]

Seems like a simple situation to me. A few special forces units or maybe some CIA teams, grab these guys up after their little convention and give them a free all expenses paid trip to Gitmo.

[ACPlayer]

Those who have made up their minds that Islam is the enemy (rather than the religious zealots) will be suspicious of the motives of any group that condemns the atrocities of 9/11 and other suicide and non-suicide attacks. See the responses on CAIR as one example of this unwillingness to listen.

Those who understand that it is not Islam per se that is fighting the US (and Israel) dont need for the moderate muslims to do any condemnation.

You condemn all muslims to be guilty by association becaause they dont protest or they protest too much.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
"[Muslim] moderates arent really speaking out against terrorists"

[/ QUOTE ]
On the day of the September 11 attacks, a letter was sent to President Bush stating: "American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today's terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime." The letter was signed by the leaders of the Council on American Islamic Relations, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, the American Muslim Alliance, the American Muslim Council, the Muslim American Society, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, the Muslim Alliance in North America, and American Muslims for Jerusalem. Most of these groups, which represent most of the seven million Muslims in the United States, issued seperate denciations of terrorism by Muslims.

It's hard for me to accept that these sorts of condemnations, widely reported in the U.S. press, so escaped your attention that you feel free to flat-out imply they never happened.

If you were really concerned with the failure of people to denounce terrorism, you might ask President Bush to denounce his National Security Advisor for Middle Eastern Affairs, Elliot Abrams. <ul type="square"> During a Nightline appearance in 1985, he [Abrams] was asked about reports that the US-funded Salvadoran military had slaughtered civilians at two sites the previous summer. Abrams maintained that no such events had occurred. And had the US Embassy and the State Department conducted an investigation? "My memory," he said, "is that we did, but I don't want to swear to it, because I'd have to go back and look at the cables." But there had been no State Department inquiry; Abrams, in his lawyerly fashion, was being disingenuous. Three years earlier, when two American journalists reported that an elite, US-trained military unit had massacred hundreds of villagers in El Mozote, Abrams told Congress that the story was commie propaganda, as he fought for more US aid to El Salvador's military. The massacre, as has since been confirmed, was real. And in 1993 after a UN truth commission, which examined 22,000 atrocities that occurred during the twelve-year civil war in El Salvador, attributed 85 percent of the abuses to the Reagan-assisted right-wing military and its death-squad allies, Abrams declared, "The Administration's record on El Salvador is one of fabulous achievement." [/list] David Corn (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zeroes/Elliot_Abrams.html), The Nation.

Under Reagan, Abrams held overall responsibility for implementing U.S. policy in Central America, including aid to the Salvadoran state terrorists and the contra terrorists attacking Nicaragua. These terror campaigns killed many times the number of civilians than Islamic terrorists have killed Americans (or probably anyone). The contras in particular visited all sorts of grisly horrors in civilians that they deliberately and specifically targeted. Hardly anyone, however, in the mainstream mentioned the crimes of these "moral equivalent of the founding fathers" when Reagan was laid to rest.

So while it's right and decent for Muslims to denounce terrorists by Muslims, it's also reasonable for them, when hearing for the umpteenth time that Americans think they don't do it often enough, to roll their eyes and mutter "pot, kettle, black."

[Gamblor]

American Muslims are educated in the values of tolerance for fellow man, even if he is an "unbeliever".

Middle Eastern Muslims, from Iran to Morocco and everywhere in between, have no values of the sort, unless Israeli funded and operated co-existence programs educate them (as they have, with Jordanians and Palestinian Arabs).

More programs, I say.

But not enough money.

(While your response will somehow involve US foreign aid, I reiterate that the money must first be used to make Israel so impenetrable that all foreign powers realize how futile it would be to bother attacking Israel.)

[nothumb]

Chris-

I think Fox News heard your cry.

Moderate Muslims speak out (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131580,00.html)

NT

[Turk]

How long do you think Israel could support their own programs? Not too long I think, not without our cash every month. They would be I think a tad less nasty to the rest of the world too without their big brother following them around everywhere they went, cleaning up the nonstop messes they create for themselves.

It wasn't until I started traveling around the world that I gained some understanding...cant get your opinions solely from Fox news and expect to have a clue.
Incidently, I personally have been to Morocco, lived there for a couple years in fact, as an American, and saw none of the intolerence you suggest, in fact it was the opposite. I was treated with respect and kindness throughout the country.
Most folks there were not so thrilled with the current US policies of course or support for Israel to such a disproportionate degree...but many here in this counrty and the rest of the world aren't either, including myself.
I was there the year before and much of the year after 9/11 and had zero trouble anywhere.

[ QUOTE ]
Middle Eastern Muslims, from Iran to Morocco and everywhere in between, have no values of the sort, unless Israeli funded and operated co-existence programs educate them (as they have, with Jordanians and Palestinian Arabs).

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, Israel hasn't done anything positive for Palastinian Arabs since they got there, nor for Jordan, unless you count greasing the palm of King Abdullah.

Let's also remember Israel is the aggressor, not defender.