64s against a raise...breaking people

[AZK]

Typical college .25/.50 game, mostly unimaginative weak/tight players...you know the ones who whine like bitches when your suited connector or what not cracks aces. I have a notorious image of being loose aggressive type guy who always gets lucky and rivers people. I, however, think there is a method to my madness. Most of these people don't know how to play deeper stack NL once money gets on the table (i.e. callin a $2 raise with these stacks). What do you think?

UTG $60? (has me covered - Tight unimaginative player)
MP $26
BB (Me) $40ish

UTG makes it $2 to go, our standard opening raise, this kid plays very tight, as in won't even limp on the button with Kxs if it's 4 limpers to him. Plays waaaay to tight. So this raise is something along the lines of AK/AA/KK in my opinion. MP calls, I call in the blind with 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Flop ($6.25) comes 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, UTG bets $5, MP folds, I raise $15, UTG thinks and goes all in. After much deliberation and some shady rationalization in my head that I also have a backdoor flush draw to go with the OESD, I call.

My $15 raise was in part to make him fold AK, since he will take a stab at the pot but is capable of folding this to a raise. However, in hindsight, I think it was a poor amount to pick because it gave me the odds to call his push and hope for a straight. He showed KK and I hit an 8 on the turn to take the pot. After this hand the whole table went nuts and couldn't believe what had just happened, UTG was PISSED and I got a lot of grief over my play. I told them they were just a bunch of babies and we let it go, but it got me thinking about how I might have made a flop mistake that allowed me to call his all in...thoughts?

[0evg0]

jokes are funny. and i know funny.

[AZK]

No I'm being serious...does anyone lay down after the intial raise or not raise at all if you KNOW villian has an overpair on this flop?

[chodeman1]

I like calling a small raise preflop with suited connectors, especialy when the raiser has a lot of chips in front of him. The problem with your play, however, was that you had already labelled this player as super-tight. If he is so predictable that you could put him on AA, KK, or AK, than you shouldn't call the bet. And if you do, you better be ready to fold unless you flop a monster (striaght, flush, trips, or a flush&straight draw).
If you knew that there was a good chance that he had an overpair, your obvious mistake was raising him on the flop (not a chance he'd fold KK with that flop).
By calling a tight players raise preflop with suited connectors, you are trying to loose a little or bust him. The way you played this hand, your lucky you didn't bust yourself.

[coltrane]

what you are saying about the flop is true - that your first mistake makes it "okay" to make another non-mistake....but I think even all of that is a result of your pre-flop mistake of playing this hand out of position...I totally agree with playing trash when it is appropriate....but here I don't think it was.....your stack is $40, which really isn't all that deep for a .25/.50 game.....the raiser acts behind you, and it creates the exact problem that you described on the flop.....he's gonna bet the flop, and then what?....you're in a bad spot either way.....and even then, I think raising is the worst option....what're you gonna do if he smoothe calls your raise and the turn blanks?.....he's certainly gonna bet if you check.....and even if he has AK and checks behind, he's a favorite over you and even if you hit one of your outs, he's not gonna give you any action with Ace-high.....I think playing this hand out of position is not gonna be the way to break an opponent.....if anything, it puts you in a position to make more mistakes and puts him in a position to make less mistakes......

[AZK]

I was anticipating checking to him and letting him bet out, which he did, and leaving it up to MP to decide what to do after his action, unfortunately MP folded and I think that my raise was now incorrect...I think I still would have pulled one off on the turn to see what came, obviously I was hoping for a heart if an 8 hadn't appeared...do you also think it's wrong to call his bet and see the turn? Even if I had missed on the turn, his bet wouldn't have been potsized, but probably another $6....on the flop I thought he would lay down AK and I thought I was 60/40 to an overpair, but I guess I was a little off, next time I'll know better...

On another note, I don't think you should really worry about position when playing trash, you are trying to break him in one shot, either the flop hits you or it doesn't...position becomes irrelevant because you are either reraising him if you hit, folding if you completely miss, or pulling one off depending on the size of his bet relative to the pot/his stack...am I way off base here?

[BobboFitos]

On another note, I don't think you should really worry about position when playing trash, you are trying to break him in one shot, either the flop hits you or it doesn't...position becomes irrelevant because you are either reraising him if you hit, folding if you completely miss, or pulling one off depending on the size of his bet relative to the pot/his stack...am I way off base here?

Position is key. If you hit a monster...
And you lead into him, he may fold.
If you check to him, he may give himself a free card.

If you dont hit a monster... You're not in position to give yourself a free card to make your hand.

If you ARE in position, you have the opportunity to raise his flop bet.
Or check along if you feel they have something like A-K, so that they make a hand.

That's why people say dont play pretty hands like suited connectors up front... You need position to maximize winnings with them.

Also, how often does a flop hit you? Even in the scenario you describe, your "weak tight opponent" was favored to win. It was a +Ev spot for him, and I dont think so for you. So... Even when you think the flop hits you, such as an OESD, realize you're still behind in the hand!

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
do you also think it's wrong to call his bet and see the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

given how the hand was played up until that point, no, I don't think it's wrong.....




[ QUOTE ]
I thought I was 60/40 to an overpair, but I guess I was a little off, next time I'll know better...

[/ QUOTE ]

no it's more like 68/32 - but that's if you see both cards....my point was that your odds significantly decrease if the turn blanks (then it becomes something like 84/16), which is not good if there's a good bit more money to be bet - particularly because you don't have the option of checking behind (you have to act first)....





[ QUOTE ]
position becomes irrelevant because you are either reraising him if you hit, folding if you completely miss, or pulling one off depending on the size of his bet relative to the pot/his stack...am I way off base here?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, yes - if the flop reraise is anything other than all-in.....you're leaving out the all-important option of being able to check behind or call a smaller bet on the turn (thus enabling you to see two cards instead of one) because of the fact that he might not be sure what to bet since you haven't showed weakness by checking.....

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should really worry about position when playing trash,

[/ QUOTE ]

very flawed thinking chief. Position is Boss in NL.

Those stacks that you guys have are not deep at all. For me to call a raise with 64s when I know he has AA, KK, AK I need us both to have at least 100 in front of us.

[ QUOTE ]
you are trying to break him in one shot, either the flop hits you or it doesn't

[/ QUOTE ]

Question. What are you more likely to flop with a hand like 64. A complete hand or a draw? The answer is a draw, and with the hearts its usually nowhere near the nuts. Play the draw slow and hope he prices you in.

Your flop raise was just bizzare.

[ QUOTE ]
am I way off base here?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. But at least you're learning. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[JohnG]

It's tough to double through or outplay a tight player on those stacks from out of position with 64s.

[AZK]

Ok, Let me try and make sense of all the comments, thank you everyone for taking the time to comment on my play, I feel that some of the statements I made i.e. position doesn't matter, were taken the wrong way, let me try and clarify...

1) I know that position is one of (if not the most) important things in playing NL. If this was a multiway pot, I would not be playing suited connectors upfront. However, I always thought that natural position becomes irrelevant in a raised pot. At that point, you are now readjusted towards position relative to the raiser, which I thought was good, since I could check to UTG and then decide what to do based on what MP does. Is that way off base?

2) I don't think I put myself in a sticky situation because he is going to bet this flop regardless, I think the sticky situation arose when I raised his bet to $15...He will lead this flop whether he has overcards or an overpair, it's mathematically more likely he has overcards. I knew that if I raised and he had overcards he would fold. When he pushes all in, I realize that I am now behind an overpair, but I have to call anyway cause I got myself pot committed. So how can I correct this in the future, I don't think that calling is an option because if the turn blanks I am forced to fold.

3) I always thought that when you play low suited cards in an attempt to break someone it's an all or none event, so that's why I didn't think about how to act on the flop...I need to work on that.

4) [ QUOTE ]
Your flop raise was just bizzare.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bunky, if you were playing against weak opponents who will bet the flop with overcards you wouldn't have raised?


5) I think Bunky hit it right on the head with the stack sizes issue, I had about 80 BBs in front of me and I think this hand would have played differently had we been deeper..I think this is the reason why I ran into trouble with the reraise and then being pot committed. Had we been deeper I probably would have just called and see what developed on the turn. Thanks for all the feedback...

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Bunky, if you were playing against weak opponents who will bet the flop with overcards you wouldn't have raised?


[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, No. I'd call his weak /feeler bet and try to spike it on the turn out of position.

[ QUOTE ]
1) I know that position is one of (if not the most) important things in playing NL. If this was a multiway pot, I would not be playing suited connectors upfront. However, I always thought that natural position becomes irrelevant in a raised pot. At that point, you are now readjusted towards position relative to the raiser, which I thought was good, since I could check to UTG and then decide what to do based on what MP does. Is that way off base?


[/ QUOTE ]

Position relative to the raiser is important, but table position is important as well. If you spike a set its a different story, A set only needs position on the flop. Where as the Draw needs it throughout the hand. You had good position relative to the raiser, but you table position was awful. You had to act before him on every round.

I don't like the raise to 15 there. Just call and see if he'll fire another bullet. If he has AK he may not fire again, (which would be fine by me) If he has the overpair, Pray he prices you in.

He may not pay you off if he's really tight if the flush card hits. But will ceratinly pay off the straight. He'll pay off a mid size bet perhaps with the straight But I wouldn't be looking for a stack unless he can't release the overpairs.

Oh yeah, and BTW, I'm NORE inlcinded to play the low suited one gappers in a multiway pot, because of the tremendous more value they can give when they pay off. I'd like the hand better if you were on the button.

[ QUOTE ]
So how can I correct this in the future, I don't think that calling is an option because if the turn blanks I am forced to fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. He may bet smaller with the KK to keep you in the hand. If he fires away, Yeah I lay it down to a big bet, But I'd get him later.

Oh yeah , and when a tight player raises UTG, I don't automaticly put him on Big Broadways, I put him on Big pairs until I am convinced otherwise. Now if its a loosey goosey, thats another story.

Nice hand though. I wouldn't have seen the flop.

[AZK]

His bet was potsized on the flop, so I don't think it's a weak bet by any means, if I call and a brick hits on the turn his bet will probably be around $8 into the $18 and I won't have the odds to continue, that's why I thought I needed to raise...

I also agree with the 'more likely to pay off a straight than a flush' thinking and rational, but then (and I feel like this has already been discussed) this begs the question why not play offsuit connectors also...you can't be happy about having a 6 high flush? so why the emphasis on a suited connector?

[GimmeDaWatch]

This hand would be alot better to play with position, that much is clear. Anyway, its a pretty big gamble to check-raise herem b/c then you're compelled to call if he moves in with an overpair (which is especially likely if you have an aggressive gambling image). I would check-call the flop and hope to hit one of my outs. He's likely to pay you off if you hit and you wont be pot-committed this way.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
1) I know that position is one of (if not the most) important things in playing NL. If this was a multiway pot, I would not be playing suited connectors upfront. However, I always thought that natural position becomes irrelevant in a raised pot. At that point, you are now readjusted towards position relative to the raiser, which I thought was good, since I could check to UTG and then decide what to do based on what MP does. Is that way off base?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. But on deepish money with a drawing type hand, you want both types of position, rather than just position on the flop.

One reason it was not a good idea to call here is that you do not know you will be paid off by the tight player if you hit, and you will not be able to outplay him so often when you miss.

[ QUOTE ]
so why the emphasis on a suited connector?

[/ QUOTE ]

Semi bluff opportunities. Various straight/flush/pair + flush/pair + flush_+ straight etc flops that allow you to play aggressively for all your chips.