Some hands for review... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

uw_madtown

09-05-2004, 09:10 PM

Been playing lots of 1-, 2-, and 3-table SNGs at Party as well as a smattering of $25NL. Having finally set up a second account with an affiliate at Empire to get a rake-back, it's time I started working on the micro-limit grind to get a set of limit skills all honed. Deposited a bankroll of $200 at Empire, with $40 in bonuses coming after 200 hands.

Early report:
562 hands
VP$IP - 17.70
VP$ISB - 46.48 (major leak, I get LAGgy in the SB)
Steal Attempts - 16.67
Aggression Factor - 1.08PF, 1.67F, 2.50T, 1.64R, 1.52 Total
Went to Showdown - 35.06
Won $ at SD - 53.70

Comments on stats may need tinkering (yes, I realize I need 9.5k more hands for this to be a real sample size) appreciated. Now, some hands that I'm having trouble evaluating my play on...

- UW

uw_madtown

09-05-2004, 09:13 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 3.75 BB
No showdown. Hero wins 3.75 BB.

My thought that I maybe should have tried a limp-reraise -- I have to bet this flop though, to prevent an ace from drawing out on my KK for free, right? My first thought was maybe a check to see if he catches something would have been good, but I think that's a mistake.

uw_madtown

09-05-2004, 09:15 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls.

River: (15 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Results to follow...

uw_madtown

09-05-2004, 09:23 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, Button raises, Hero folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (11 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Button bets, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

UTG+2 shows Td Qh (two pair, queens and threes).
Button shows Qs Th (two pair, queens and threes).

cab4656

09-05-2004, 09:23 PM

Hand 1: Looks fine. It happens. If you find you usually can't get action on your premium hands, perhaps you should find a new table. I'm sure there's a better one, especially at that level.

Hand 2: Looks okay, not much else you can do.

Hand 3: Looks fine. The board isn't very coordinated, and there are two overcards. Whatever he's raising with, you probably can't beat. Good fold on the turn.

uw_madtown

09-05-2004, 09:26 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 6s 5s (flush, jack high).
UTG+1 shows Tc Jc (two pair, jacks and tens).
MP1 shows Kc Ts (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.25 BB.

cab4656

09-05-2004, 09:31 PM

And hand four. With everyone calling the flop bet, I don't think it hurts to call and see the turn. But if you're going to do this, you have to bet the river (you have to bet the river regardless of how you got there). The reason you were able to take a card off on the flop was because you had not only a pair, but a backdoor draw. When that backdoor draw comes, you have to win back some bets. Otherwise, the flop call (probably) becomes unprofitable.

uw_madtown

09-05-2004, 09:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Looks fine. It happens. If you find you usually can't get action on your premium hands, perhaps you should find a new table. I'm sure there's a better one, especially at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember that table being particularly tight. I forgot to mention though that I'm four-tabling. I'm fairly confident that I will be able to eek out at least a mild winning rate at .50/1 simply by playing tight. I want to get a 10k sample of hands into Poker Tracker quickly so I can evaluate natural leaks in my game and identify particular situations that I've been playing poorly in the heat of four-tabling. If I drop back to $150 or so I'll cut back to 2-tables, which I can concentrate on pretty easily. Similarly I'll probably only 2-table whenever I move up levels. Anyway, my point was that the table MAY have been really tight at that moment without me taking note, but I don't think it was. Felt like my play was fine but it also felt like I should have gotten more out of KK here somehow. Might just be the poker ego though.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Looks okay, not much else you can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a hand that I think may qualify as a leak. I'm not sure it's +EV to call his reraise and then check-call the river, given that he woke up at the Queen, and may very well have two-pair or a slowplayed set. In retrospect, I think I should be folding to his reraise. I still think I have to bet out on the turn though -- seems weak-tight not to.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: Looks fine. The board isn't very coordinated, and there are two overcards. Whatever he's raising with, you probably can't beat. Good fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a better example of how I think Hand Two should have been played, but I'm still not sure which is correct (or if there's a brutal error in both.

- UW

uw_madtown

09-05-2004, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And hand four. With everyone calling the flop bet, I don't think it hurts to call and see the turn. But if you're going to do this, you have to bet the river (you have to bet the river regardless of how you got there). The reason you were able to take a card off on the flop was because you had not only a pair, but a backdoor draw. When that backdoor draw comes, you have to win back some bets. Otherwise, the flop call (probably) becomes unprofitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. My river play would be accurately described as "miserably failed check-raise attempt". I thought with the previous aggression and my passivity so far, I could safely check-raise here. Nope.

I'm more concerned with whether my decision to see the turn is valid -- as well as calling two bets ON the turn chasing the newly developed flush draw.

- UW

uw_madtown

09-05-2004, 09:44 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (12.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero shows As Ad (one pair, aces).
CO shows Jd Js (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: CO wins 18.25 BB.

cab4656

09-05-2004, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a hand that I think may qualify as a leak. I'm not sure it's +EV to call his reraise and then check-call the river, given that he woke up at the Queen, and may very well have two-pair or a slowplayed set. In retrospect, I think I should be folding to his reraise. I still think I have to bet out on the turn though -- seems weak-tight not to.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could be right. This is one that I'm not too sure on. After looking at it again, based on Button's preflop raise, you might be able to assume you're beat here. Maybe someone else can help us out.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm more concerned with whether my decision to see the turn is valid -- as well as calling two bets ON the turn chasing the newly developed flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you can call here. From what I understand, it's rarely correct to fold a flush draw. In this situation, you have the odds (4:1 to make your flush with the river to come, you're getting like 9:2 on your call plus implied odds) and the board is not paired. I see no reason not to call.

Hand five: Bet the flop. If raised, 3-bet. Regardless of if he caps or not, bet the turn. If raised there, you can then call down.

ArturiusX

09-06-2004, 08:38 AM

In the pocket Aces hand, I definitly would have been more aggresive. Although the guy always had his set, there were still 7 limping into the turn. Raise and scare them off, raise at the turn again.

I'm not sure if this is the correct play, but its what I would have done /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

crockett

09-06-2004, 10:15 AM

Hand 4:

I think your line is fine. The call on the turn is really a coin toss. Your getting 8.25:2 to make the call to hit your flush. You can't get much closer that that. With implied odds and a higher flush card in your hand then it is a definate call. The fact that I'm holding a 6 would make me hesitate before I hit the call button, but I would hit the call button because I'm closing the betting for this round, there is no chance anyone can raise behind me so I make this call.

Hand 5:

I 3-bet the flop if he caps it then I give credit for bigger hand than me and I check/call down from there.

rjc199

09-06-2004, 02:57 PM

a limp re-raise????

Throw that concept away and perhaps think about it when you are the the 15-30 level years from now. It is a total waste of EV in low limit.

rjc199

09-06-2004, 02:57 PM

looks good to me.

rjc199

09-06-2004, 02:58 PM

99 isn't big enough to raise preflop in bad position. If you are LP then it is ok, but not here.

Good fold to the turn raise.

rjc199

09-06-2004, 02:59 PM

AA isn't big enough to slow play on the flop. Perhaps you could do it with a set on a rainbow board, but other than that NEVER slowplay again.

rjc199

09-06-2004, 03:01 PM

Why didn't you bet the river? If you thought your flush wasn't going to be big enough to bet then why did you waste your time drawing to it?

uw_madtown

09-07-2004, 12:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Early report:
562 hands
VP$IP - 17.70
VP$ISB - 46.48 (major leak, I get LAGgy in the SB)
Steal Attempts - 16.67
Aggression Factor - 1.08PF, 1.67F, 2.50T, 1.64R, 1.52 Total
Went to Showdown - 35.06
Won $ at SD - 53.70

[/ QUOTE ]

UPDATE
------

1217 hands
VP$IP - 16.76%
VP$ISB - 41.72% (down 5%)
Steal Attempts - 20.59% (7 of 34)
Aggression Factor - 1.11PF, 2.56F, 3.32T, 1.92R, 1.83 Total
Went to Showdown - 34.68%
Won $ at SD - 58.25% (up 5%)
BB/100 - 10.68

Today was a very good session, with several large pots, so my earnings are obviously skewed. But 1/10 of the way to 10k hands at .50/1, I think my aggression/VPIP numbers are good? Comments on those would be particularly helpful.

Five more hands for review coming up.

- UW

uw_madtown

09-07-2004, 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
99 isn't big enough to raise preflop in bad position. If you are LP then it is ok, but not here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
a limp re-raise????

Throw that concept away and perhaps think about it when you are the the 15-30 level years from now. It is a total waste of EV in low limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both pieces of advice noted. I really need to work on training myself that fancy play will be relatively worthless for awhile. I usually justify something like an aggressive raise (99 EP) or the idea of limp-reraising AA by saying such moves "mix up my play". But why bother mixing up your play much at low/micro limits online where you don't even see the same players often enough to benefit? I need to stop trying tricky plays completely (FWIW, I don't do them often in limit).

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet the river? If you thought your flush wasn't going to be big enough to bet then why did you waste your time drawing to it?

[/ QUOTE ]

The aggression shows by both other players in that hand made me quite certain I could successfully check-raise here... apparently not... that was my thinking anyway, and another example of tricky play that probably was stupid.

- UW

InchoateHand

09-07-2004, 12:31 AM

No offense...but with limpers...ALWAYS raise 99 PF in the SB. It will win more than its fair share, and its on the border of pair value, as opposed to the simple set value of, say, 55.

If you always raised 99 in the SB when limped to you, I don't think it would be a mistake.

InchoateHand

09-07-2004, 12:33 AM

No offense---I think these are well played hands. I, too, have played 1k hands in a session. Your percentages from such are meaningless, for now. If SampleSizeMan were around, he would deem your sample size INSUFFICIENT , and rightly so

uw_madtown

09-07-2004, 01:53 AM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $0.50. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 (poster) checks, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

River: (9.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kh Qh (three of a kind, queens).
MP1 has 3h Kc (one pair, queens).
CO has Kd As (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.75 BB. 

I feel like I needed to raise this river. I didn't, fearing that there may be a had out there beating me (AQ, KT, 66). Weak play on my part, but I felt geniune fear of one of these hands for some reason. Retrospect -- bad bad play.

uw_madtown

09-07-2004, 01:55 AM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks.

Turn: (4 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: (4 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: 4 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ac Qs (high card, ace).
UTG has 3d As (one pair, threes).
UTG+1 has Kc 4s (one pair, fours).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 4 BB. 

Bet out somewhere here?

uw_madtown

09-07-2004, 01:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No offense---I think these are well played hands. I, too, have played 1k hands in a session. Your percentages from such are meaningless, for now. If SampleSizeMan were around, he would deem your sample size INSUFFICIENT , and rightly so

[/ QUOTE ]

Sample size is definitely insufficient -- although I thought that certain numbers started to take shape accurately by the time you hit 1-2k hands (such as aggression factor and VPIP)...

- UW

uw_madtown

09-07-2004, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No offense...but with limpers...ALWAYS raise 99 PF in the SB. It will win more than its fair share, and its on the border of pair value, as opposed to the simple set value of, say, 55.

If you always raised 99 in the SB when limped to you, I don't think it would be a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's 1-1 on the raising with 99 in the SB. I remember distinctly thinking that thought -- that I probably have the best hand pre-flop, and so I want money going into the pot. Even though playing 99 in the SB position after the flop can be very, very tricky.

More opinions on this?

- UW

uw_madtown

09-07-2004, 02:04 AM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button folds.

River: (9.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has Qs 7s (two pair, queens and sevens).
Hero has Qh 8d (two pair, queens and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.50 BB.

InchoateHand

09-07-2004, 02:35 AM

Please, don't trust me---trust long-term winning players.
Go over to the SS forum, and ask....
If its there are five limpers to you in the SB, do you raise 99?

Trust me that every solid player will say yes. Or don't trust me, and ask yourself!
Keep up the good work.

InchoateHand

09-07-2004, 02:39 AM

Maybe a flush is out. Maybe a royal straight is out. But since the bet came from where it did...I think you are correct in believing you can raise this river for value. However...do you really want to?
Say you do....well, MP1 will fold probably fold to two bets cold without a better hand, and CO will only call. In which case, you invite a situation where you make the same number of BB, but only hands that beat you call (or re-raise). This is a case where calling is correct--since there is a player likely to call one bet behind you. So this isn't weak/tight---its appropriate.

InchoateHand

09-07-2004, 02:41 AM

Yeah, like....on the flop...and the turn. Yes, you are drawing, but you have two overcard outs, plus a BDFD....you may well fold bottom pair. Betting out, long term, is probably a +EV move. Especially with weak/tight opponents.

InchoateHand

09-07-2004, 02:43 AM

PLayed well....
Since Two pair is such a vulnerable hand, you may want to consider c/ring this flop.
But that is case dependent.
Trust better players than me on that one.
Regardless, the line you took was solid....and happened to work (never a bad thing, even if you aren't results-oriented).

uw_madtown

09-07-2004, 06:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, like....on the flop...and the turn. Yes, you are drawing, but you have two overcard outs, plus a BDFD....you may well fold bottom pair. Betting out, long term, is probably a +EV move. Especially with weak/tight opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree, but it seems that Party .50/1 is very loose-passive -- in other words, I'd expect that any pair is calling me down here. That makes me unsure what the correct play is here. Maybe bet out on the turn and if I don't take it down there, fold to a river brick? I still don't know. I just don't think I get people to fold a pair here often enough for this to be profitable, until I hit 1/2 or 2/4 where they might be a bit tighter.

- UW