"Stew"-dent Issues

Regualar Forum readers know that I have had what you might call a protege, or as I call him, my "Stew"-dent, a retired guy in his late 60's named Stew who I introduced to HE about 5 years ago. We have become very good friends over the years. He plays virtually every day, getting into the start-up 3-6 game at noon with the other retired guys and ne'er-do-wells hanging around at that time of day.


He plays a very tight, somewhat unimaginative game, but has done quite well with this crowd. He did run into a rough couple of months this summer, but overall he is a steady winner in this game. My issue with him is that I think he is leaving a lot of money on the table with this bunch, for a couple of reasons.


My main "problem" with Stew, if you want to call it a problem, is that he just won't play enough hours, and he has developed a reputation as a hit 'n run artist. He will sit down in the game, and if in the first hour, he gets up from, say $60-$100, he quits. Boom. Gone. Game could be populated with 9 of the biggest fish in the ocean, but he's got his nut and he's cashing out. I had a nice sit late last week in the evening, making about $250 in a 3-6 game over about 3 hours, and he just sits there and shakes his head, "How do you DO that?" I tell him that you can't make $250 in a game if you always quit when you get up a C-note.


His retort to me is that he plays every day, the game will be there tomorrow, and he just wants to plug along and make enough to lock up a win. It's not like he has a plane to catch or anything by leaving early. Hell, half the time, he will just hang out in the card room for another couple of hours and kibbitz the game. I tell him he's nuts to bail out on some of these games with the roster of weak players he's up against. Some of these line-ups, you couldn't get me out of there at gunpoint. That of course doesn't automatically guarantee you a winning sit; even the poor players pick up winning hands once in

a while, but I just dont' think he is giving himself his best chance to be a bigger, and more consistent winner.


The other issue I have with this patternn of behavior is that I know for a fact that many of the other players are making him a target because they resent this hit and run attitude. Now, they should be glad when he leaves, because in all liklihood he is going to be replaced by a player who will give more action, but it is just human nature , I suppose, to resent a player who skips out on a game with your money and not give you any chance to get it back. I know it's not a house game, and there is usually always a steady stream of players to take his seat, but I have heard many comments to this effect from players when Stew is not around.


He wonders why he gets little or no action when he is in a pot. One, these players aren't THAT stupid; they know he only mixes it up with premium hands and they run for cover. I have told him many times he should exploit that image with more frequent and somewhat more liberal raises in the right spots, and by learning how to better recognize and cash in on small edges when he has them, until they wise up, but that just doesn't seem to be his style.


But hey, maybe it's ME that is off base here. I tell him to play more hours when the games are good, but he won't listen to me. Would anyone else out here like to add some comments? If I am wrong, please tell me and I will back off. But I firmly believe he is not doing himself justice by doing this, and maybe if he hears it from others, he might start to listen.


All comments appreciated. Thanks.

there is no real benefit to lock up a win. it is true that it hurts your bottom line especially because the days you win early may be the games that are best suited for you. and then you end up forgoing the big scores.

but some people need a mental boost to their egos and always quitting a winner makes them feel good. then so be it. but it is clear that they are playing feel good poker rather than poker for money.

well, my first thought is, 'hey, its his money, let him do what he wants.' but you wouldn't be a good teacher if you didn't try to correct the behavior of your Stew-dent. the problem with playing longer hours when you are ahead is that it can always go very quickly down the drain and then you may get on tilt. one of the hardest things for me is recognizing when the game has dried up and i should take my win and go home. i went ahead 160 in a 2.50-5.00 game last weekend, and then it closed up. i didn't feel like moving up to 5-10, and my friend also wanted to take off. so we did. i came back the next day, and the 2.50/5 game wasn't going to start, so i decided to play 5-10 that day. in the first half hour i was ahead over 200 dollars. then it started to drain, draws not getting there etc. i got moved from the feeder table to the main game, and found myself out of position with all the tight-aggressives immediately behind me, and the weak fish on my right. it took the rest of my buy-in (which lasted a decent amount of time, winning all-in pots twice) to realize i was outclassed here. so a net win of $60 for the weekend. not bad, i guess, better than losing, but pretty dumb considering i could have walked out of there with $300 more than i did. sometimes booking a win is better than sitting around to find the game go sour just when you get stuck. i believe that if i had more discipline that i would be a more consistent winner than i am now. however, your point seems to be valid. stew could be mopping up these games, but instead plays it safe and just barely gets his feet wet. a small consistent winning game is not bad (most people would kill for it). but it seems like the more time you put in, the greater the variance, especially against a bunch of weak-loose clowns. who knows, maybe stew's best game only lasts an hour or two at a time, and he really is taking the most he can from the chumps.

I'm sure Stew spends a lot more time watching his game than you do. He may not be a long-distance player. He may get emotional about a few hundred dollars profit. It only takes winning big once, and a little greed, to learn to stay in a good game.


If his leaving really is a greed/fear decision, rather than a poor understanding of statistics or anything he has learned about his play, he is probably making many bigger errors in the same vein while he is playing, errors I won't detail here.


The idea is, leaving a game is probably the smartest thing you can do if you are dumb or lazy enough to do so.


- the guy

Dunc,


The fact of the matter is "Some people just don't get it". U can talk to your blue in the face, but they are going to stick to their way of playing. What I would suggest is getting another student who is willing to read, study, and learn the correct or near correct way to play. This way u can both learn and grow together and have fun doing it.


jmopaul

I agree with a lot of what you say, for sure. I am certainly not advocating playing more hours just for the sake of playing more hours per se. He's been playing long enough now that I think he can recognize the shifts in the game with the talent coming and going and the game texture changing. But for the most part, he is playing with generally much the same cast day in and day out, and IMO if the game is good at noon, and 1 pm, it is going to be just a lucrative for him at 2 or 3. I am also not advocating playing beyond when you are at your best, or tired, but c'mon. He can't be getting played out after an hour. Cripes, he works out 3 times a week, and is probably in better aerobic shape that I am!


And what you say about giving some of the money back is just his attitude as well. He freely admits it kills him emotionally to be up a C-note, and then end up giving half of it back. I just ask him if that was the last session of poker he is ever going to play, and to take a longer view of things.


I am probably more upset when I have been up big in a sit and end up making only a little bit, than I am when I have a bad day, nothing goes right, and I lose a rack. But if I analyse things properly and honestly, it is often more the case that I fell from grace and didn't play MY best, or I didn't recognize the game had changed, and it's my own stupid fault, no one else's.

Well, I think there are a few things you may not be taking into account here.


1) Stew is not a young guy! I'll be surprised if I can play 3 hours at a time at his age (hell, I'll be surprised if I can play 3 hours at a time when I'm DUNC's age!).


2) I consider Stew a recreational player. He's there for the social aspects as much as the $. If taking a loss makes him feel bad, he should feel free to hit and run all he wants and then hang out in the cardroom for several hours afterwards. I fail to see how anyone could find some of the lamebrains in our cardrooms interesting company, but to each his own! I find Stew fun to play with, especially when I try to push him off his hand (which I might add never works and I get to announced Jack high to his AA). I like having Stew on the table both because he's a pleasant opponent and predictable/easy to play against (when I keep myself under control?).


3) on "being a target"; this is a greater problem for Stew I think. Some people (me for example) don't mind having the table "out to get you" but I don't think its Stew's cup of tea.


Overall, I think this kind of behaviour is what you can expect from Stew, the original "TOM". I don't think you can expect a young go getter attitude and I don't think you should try to change him.

I've gotta agree for Paul here, if for no other reason than the fact that Stew has learned as much as he wants to about playing poker. Intellectually, he must know that it's all one big session. He must know that game selection is so important that you don't want to walk out on a school of fish. He's gotta know that the hit and run act hurts his table image, and costs him money.


And that's OK for Stew. He's going to be a recreational player, God bless him, and it hurts him emotionally more to change than not to do so. For Stew, that's where he wants to be.


But I don't think he should waste a teacher's time in doing so. Continue being his friend, but don't get emotionally involved in his continuing improvement if he doesn't want to make the necessary changes to improve. Find a student who you can help, because seeing improvement in your protege is what coaching and teaching is all about.

When I play a game (whether poker, chess, or go fish), I get the most enjoyment out of it when I play my best, as hard as I can. It's not about beating up the opposition, but pushing myself.


It just isn't that way for Stew. As others have mentioned, he is there for the social aspects. Any win feels good, and any loss is tough. The $100 he is up now is at least as important as the $300 he might get in the next four hours. I guess it's the utility theory argument.


Don't push him to change. I think that would only hurt your relationship, and wouldn't help him anyway. He has decided what he wants and how to get it. Who are we to say he is wrong? I'm not saying you can't try to guide him in certain areas, but forcing it is wrong.


Some posters have talked about Stew not playing correctly. Who are they to be saying that? His way may not be the correct way to achieve their own goals, but his goals aren't the same.


If it's the same Stew, then I played at his table for three years. He is a real gentleman, a pleasant companion, somebody I enjoyed having in the game for many reasons.


Eric

Eric, you are absolutely right. Stew IS a perfect gentleman, and a great guy, both as a friend, and someone with whom to sit at the poker table. I appreciate your comments, and those of everyone else who has offered up their opinions.


I have copied all the responses, and maybe later tonight, or tomorrow over our regular Saturday $3.25 breakfast at Pat & Mike's, I will show Stewie the comments. I do not for a moment think he's going to make any life-altering changes in his behavior, and maybe for his goals, he shouldn't. I just want to see if he really does understand that there is so much more he could be accomplishing here. I am not on some mission; if he wants to chug along as is, hey, as you say, who am I to say he is wrong? It's his life, not mine.

Dunc, possibly you could ge him to use what a friend of mine calls the watermark. if he is up 100, then he actually places a chip in his stack at the 50 win level, and if his win goes down to this he quits....if he continues to win, then he moves the chip upwards to mark a new level, etc


BUT he also has a peak point (300) at which he will quit the game. I never understand why he does not continue with watermark moving up, but he says,no, and is happy.


he will stop at a 100 loss...never goes over this