Tough decision preflop with KK

[2PAUL2]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on this forum. I've been playing on party for a couple of months now and wanted to see what people made of my decision here.

I was dealt KK in middle position in a full .50BB ring game. There was two limpers to me so i bumped it up to $4. Someone in late position called, the blinds folded along with the first limper, then the second limper pushed all in . I had only been at the table a couple of circuits and had no real read on his play and he had me covered by a few dollars. I took my full amount of time and decided that with the limp he probably had AA and i layed it down. This is the first time i have layed KK down preflop and the more i think about the more i believe i should have called. This was my reasoning at the time:

1) I had no real read on his play or poker tracker stats to help me put him on JJ,QQ,AK or even the classic party A/x.(This is also why i think it may be a bad laydown because if i do this every time someone limp reraises me all in im going to miss many opportuities to dominate JJ,QQ,AK)

2) It seemed to be like he wanted a call as when it came back to him he instantly went all in knowing there were two players to act who had already commited 4 dolars to the pot.

3) Because the play on party can be so weak you want to be playing flops against them, and there is no need to take risks in the more marginal decions such as this when you no there will much easier decions to come.

I would like to know if anyone else makes this laydown and what you think of my reasoning.

Feel free to critisise as any help is appreciated while i am still in the novice stages of the game.

Thanks in advance,

Paul

[Xargque]

I shove every time and expect to win at least 9/10. Weak or even moderate players would probably bet less than all-in with AA hoping the original raiser shoves at them. That's what I'd do too unless I thought I had an overly aggressive table image at the time.

I'm assuming you and villain each have about $25 stacks at the beginning of the hand. If he is on a shorter stack (about $15 before the hand) then I might worry a little more about AA, but still call. If he is on a big stack then I happily shove as this sort of massive overbet is unlikely with rockets IMO.

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3) Because the play on party can be so weak you want to be playing flops against them, and there is no need to take risks in the more marginal decions such as this when you no there will much easier decions to come.

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You are taking this idea WAY too far. QQ might be a marginal decision JJ is a fold AK and I expect a coinflip here, but unless the stacks are very deep I shove right along with AK given the dead money and the chance of AQ.

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2) It seemed to be like he wanted a call as when it came back to him he instantly went all in knowing there were two players to act who had already commited 4 dolars to the pot.

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Possibly, but unless he is a great player QQ would want a call here expecting to see you with JJ or AK.

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Feel free to critisise as any help is appreciated while i am still in the novice stages of the game.

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Still a novice too, so I'd be interested to see if any veterans disagree here.

-X

[fimbulwinter]

in general, at low stakes, short stacked NL, never laydown KK preflop. get all in if you can. from time to time you'll see AA, but you're a winner against any other hand. not only are you a winner, but you DOMINATE those hands. the only way i'd lay this down is if you're both deep stacked (100+ bucks at 25NL) and the guy is a solid, respectable, rocky player.
That said, i'd really raise harder with KK. you have to remember that you'll probably back the hand with your stack if no A flops, so put enough in there to give the PP's terrible odds to flop a set on you. this is doubly important because you're trying to buy the button in middle position so you need to give a real good reason for all those to act after you to fold. remember that, at this point, taking down what's in the pot isn't bad value for KK. it's certainly not ideal, but if you can fold out the implied odds hands (small PP) you're in much better shape.

that's how i play it as the resident aggro psycho of SSNL 2+2 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

fim

[JohnG]

It's an easy decision, not a tough one. In this spot you are likely to see a lot of other hands other than AA. Not many players that can limp with aces after another limper. If he has AA, so be it.

Depending on the player, he could easily have a big ace or some kind of pair hoping you have AK. I know I'd be moving in with any hand I decided to play at this point, given your raise and stack.

You're going to get run over playing this scared.

[nickey009]

Phil Helmuth said he's folded KK 4 times in his life. I guess this will be your first. I've never folded KK and don't plan to ever fold it. I really don't think my ability to read hands will ever be good enough to put someone on AA preflop. Especially online.

[TwoShedsJackson]

I would never fold KK preflop on Partypoker unless I was very familiar with the reraiser and could be nigh on certain he had AA. Otherwise it's all going in the centre.

[2PAUL2]

Thanks for the help,

I had $25 and he had just under $30 so i should have called. I think it will be a long time before i fold KK preflop again.

Cheers,

Paul

[Daann]

Never fold KK to an unknown player preflop, especially considering the stack sizes and the limit.

[2PAUL2]

lol

The exact same thing just happened. I called, my opponent had AA and i won with a rivered flush.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bkholdem]

I think going all in with KK is worth it as others have indicated. I also really like your reasoning. You may be leaving money on the table with this fold but you seem to understand there is lots to be made post flop where your edge is more certain. Don't beat yourself up over the fold (AA is very possible since he limped and quickly went all in after a big raise and call). Get the money this hand or later in the game...as long as you get it.