SSH page 135 question

[Warband]

SSH page 135

Ah6h vs Qh6h

Ed explains that one of the reasons A6 is better is because you will win more often when you miss your flush but pair your top card.

What about Ah2h vs Kh2h?
There is more of a chance in many micro limit games that you opponents will be holding an Ace. Is there a case to be made that Kh2h>Ah2h because if you make your top pair the King will win more often as long as there is no Ace on the board (and nobody is holding AA)?


T.

[kenewbie]

To be blunt, your post makes no sense.

A2s > K2s for obvious reasons like high card value and straight options.

*edit, post not pots*
k

[Bulbarainey]

i see what your getting at, tons of the micro players play anything with the ace, but that straight possibility raises your chances immensly, and makes it much more valuable multiway

[Peter Harris]

You may chop the pot with an ace. Maybe not as low as A2, but a higher ace can win a kicker war. Hidden outs help.

The straight possibilities of A2 are a tad overrated.

K2 is worse than A2 because of the risk of an A hitting on later streets. You don't have that worry with A2 and with superior postflop skills you should be able to size up your position in the hand.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Cleveland Guy]

It seems like most who will play any Axo or Axs. Will also play just about any kxo. So I don't think it makes much difference here.

[Ed Miller]

A2s is unconditionally a better hand than K2s. You can play with Pokerroom's EV stats (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue) to prove this to yourself.

[kureido]

i see what your getting at, tons of the micro players play anything with the ace, but that straight possibility raises your chances immensly, and makes it much more valuable multiway

I recall SSHE saying that A6s is a marginally better hand than A2s, as the wheel possibility doesn't really restore the value lost by having no kicker. I'd look it up, but my copy is on loan.

-b

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
but my copy is on loan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just what Ed likes to hear. Another royalty bites the dust...

[kureido]

Just what Ed likes to hear. Another royalty bites the dust...

I knew someone was going to say that, so to reassure NPAEM, if he doesn't buy it by Christmas his sister and I are getting it for him. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Of course, he reads these forums occasionally, so the surprise factor just went down... Meh, maybe he'll get the hint and pick it up himself.

</hijack>

-b

[Ed Miller]

Of course, he reads these forums occasionally, so the surprise factor just went down... Meh, maybe he'll get the hint and pick it up himself.

I think you should buy it, mystery book borrower.

[rudeybrad]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, he reads these forums occasionally, so the surprise factor just went down... Meh, maybe he'll get the hint and pick it up himself.

I think you should buy it, mystery book borrower.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take that under advisement as I continue my readthrough.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
A2s is unconditionally a better hand than K2s. You can play with Pokerroom's EV stats (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue) to prove this to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

It lists A2s EV as 0.00 and K2s EV as -0.08 making A2s just marginally better . . .

Also if you note Poker Room lists Axs as +EV with the exception of A2s which is break even:
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/totalStats.php?order=value

[Ed Miller]

It lists A2s EV as 0.00 and K2s EV as -0.08 making A2s just marginally better . . .

I don't know how big you think the preflop edges in limit hold 'em are... particularly for the hands weaker than the twenty best or so... but if you think that 0.08 is a small difference, look at the following hands:

Hands that have +0.08 EV at Pokerroom: AT, A5s, A7s

Hands that have 0.00 EV at Pokerroom: 98s, T8s, K7s, A2s

Hands that have -0.08 EV at Pokerroom: J9, T9, 54s, Q6s, K3s, K2s, Q9

There is a significant strength difference between each of those tiers of hands.

BTW, for the non-believers (not that we have any left here) look at the difference in value between A9s (0.18) and A2s (0.00). The value of Axs falls off quickly and substantially as your kicker drops, all the way down to A3s and A2s.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
A2s is unconditionally a better hand than K2s. You can play with Pokerroom's EV stats to prove this to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's unwise to use those stats to try to prove about the strength of hands. Those stats are gathered from all players at all abilities. For example, from the stats, it would appear that AKs is a worse hand than AQs in certain situations (6-handed tables in particular).

[Warband]

Let me ask my question in a different way.

You make top pair on the river with a low kicker. Would you rather have King's or Ace's?

T.

[Ed Miller]

You make top pair on the river with a low kicker. Would you rather have King's or Ace's?

That's not asking the same question in a different way. That's asking a completely different question. Generally you'd rather have top pair of kings on the river than top pair of aces.

But notice that when you stipulate "top pair of kings" you've subtly enforced that no ace be on board. I'd much rather have a pair of aces than a pair of kings when the board contains both an ace and a king. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

EDIT: Well, you did ask the same question, but I guess my point is that you cannot even remotely conclude from the answer to this question that K2s is better than A2s.

[Ed Miller]

I think it's unwise to use those stats to try to prove about the strength of hands. Those stats are gathered from all players at all abilities. For example, from the stats, it would appear that AKs is a worse hand than AQs in certain situations (6-handed tables in particular).

You are correct that you have to be careful when you use these stats. Yes, they are played by non-experts, and yes, they do have some sample size issues (particuarly once you start breaking things down by position, number of players, etc.).

But having said that, these discrepancies cannot account for a difference as LARGE as 0.08 BB/hand between two hands over the entire dataset. For instance, look at the entire dataset (http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/totalStats.php?order=value) again. Can you find a hand that you believe to be in the wrong spot by 0.08 BB/hand or more?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
But having said that, these discrepancies cannot account for a difference as LARGE as 0.08 BB/hand between two hands over the entire dataset. For instance, look at the entire dataset again. Can you find a hand that you believe to be in the wrong spot by 0.08 BB/hand or more?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. On pg. 47 of your book KJs looks to be better than .5 BB, but it comes in at .29 BB on the chart.

[Ed Miller]

Yes. On pg. 47 of your book KJs looks to be better than .5 BB, but it comes in at .29 BB on the chart.

The data in the book uses a completely different dataset. You cannot compare the two at all.

My point was, can you find WITHIN THE POKERROOM DATA a hand that you believe SHOULD BE RANKED LOWER than another hand, but that is 0.08 BB/hand or more HIGHER.

[AncientPC]

Ok nevermind, I stand corrected due to insufficient sample size.