Flopping sets on 2-suited flops [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Gomez22

09-03-2004, 01:30 AM

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Gomez22 is UTG+1 with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, Gomez22 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Gomez22 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Gomez22 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Gomez22 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, Gomez22 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, BB folds.

River: (13.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Gomez22 bets, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB
Main Pot: 15.50 BB, between Gomez22 and MP1.

Normally, this is my default play from EP when flopping a set on a 2-tone board. If the 3rd of a suit comes on the turn, I usually go into check-call mode if there's much betting/calling or betting/raising behind me(I know... weak) depending on opps. and what I know of their mannerisms.

Anyone play this any differently?

manwhoonlyeats

09-03-2004, 01:43 AM

Although you have a monster hand, i think you have to get the money in the pot on the flop to make flush draws pay. Also you don't want to give a freecard with a 2-suited board. Why not bet out on the flop? If you're going to check, check-raise to build a big pot and charge the flush draws more.

Gomez22

09-03-2004, 02:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Although you have a monster hand, i think you have to get the money in the pot on the flop to make flush draws pay. Also you don't want to give a freecard with a 2-suited board. Why not bet out on the flop? If you're going to check, check-raise to build a big pot and charge the flush draws more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you understand the point about low-limit fish and chasing their draws.....

If I bet or check-raise the pot on the flop, what am I actually accomplishing by doing that in this situation? (Yes, I want an answer to that question).

If instead, I play passively on the flop, and wait until I can REALLY hammer them(when the bet amounts are doubled, eg - turn/river)... aren't I THEN making them pay for their draws?

No matter what I do on the flop, with 7 SB in the pot, no draw is going to fold.... it will never happen unless maybe the board is paired, ala AAK, and there were 2-3 raises PF. In a situation like this, you can lead out and check-raise all you want..... the draws are still going to look at the turn......

And then you are in the position of having to lead the turn, into a big pot, without getting an opportunity to make them pay 2 big bets instead of the 2 SMALL bets you charged on the flop..... they're going to keep chasing anyways...

Think about it and let me know what your answer is to my question I posted earlier about what I actually accomplish by leading or check-raising the flop?????

'Mez

Farrquaad

09-03-2004, 02:27 AM

Can I take a stab at this?

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet or check-raise the pot on the flop, what am I actually accomplishing by doing that in this situation? (Yes, I want an answer to that question).

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting more money into a pot that you're going to win about half the time?

AnteGravity

09-03-2004, 02:51 AM

You need to raise on the flop with your set. There are too many players and flush draw on the board. Hell even an inside striaght draw.

You flopped the nuts, a set on the top card. And low limits tend to be loose on their calls. Raise to build the pot(against weak-loose players), and to cut down contestors of the pot (against weak-tight players).

You have the made hand, make them PAY for trying to draw on you. If you don't, your not protecting your hand and give the fish what they want, free cards. And if a fish makes his striaght or flush on your free cards, the only thing you can do is hope for a boad pair or a quad. And thats not what you want to do.

Raise and reraise on the flop.

Gomez22

09-03-2004, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Getting more money into a pot that you're going to win about half the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to do that on a co-ordinated flop against 6 other players? You're effectively giving odds for any hand to chase you to the river, and against 6 other players on this board, I'd have to think at least 1 big draw is out and possibly 2. Against 2-3 opponents, I can see that play, but against 6 players(5 players on the turn), it only creates more hands out against you, and more cards you have to dodge unless your opponents are tight players in the first place.

If I check-raise the flop, the size of the pot should come out about the same at showdown based on the action that happened here, but I think I would rather raise for more than just building a pot on the flop, when many players are going to be tied to their hands, with hands that often have good capabilities of out-drawing me here.

If I were to have a nut-flush draw here, I may build the pot on the flop, but with a made hand on a co-ordinated board against two-thirds of the table, I want to get to a point where I can really punish chasers. I can do that by making them pay 1 big bet on the flop, or 2 big bets on the turn...... which sounds better to you?

AnteGravity

09-03-2004, 04:19 AM

Are you trying to say that there is a mathematical threshold where it is more profitable to check/call top trips with 7 players on the flop with a possible striaght flush draw on the board then it is to raise?

davelin

09-03-2004, 04:40 AM

What he's trying to say is he has a monster hand but is vulnerable to a lot of draws and wants to protect it. So betting out or check-raising the flop doesn't accomplish this since everyone will call an additional bet and make the pot bigger for the turn which will start inducing calls for players who are going for gutshot straight draws.

At the end of the day, Gomez has a hand that needs to be protected.

Gomez22

09-03-2004, 04:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you trying to say that there is a mathematical threshold where it is more profitable to check/call top trips with 7 players on the flop with a possible striaght flush draw on the board then it is to raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to say that.... what I was trying to illustrate is what davelin just said.

I have a monster hand... the nuts on the flop, but even though it's a monster does NOT mean that it doesn't need to be protected due to 2 things:

1. The size of the pot on the flop

2. The size of the field I'm against

The best way for me to protect my hand, build a pot, AND charge the draws is to check-raise the turn. Check-raising the turn accomplishes all of these things, whereas check-raising or leading the flop does not.

If you don't understand that concept, read SSH....

SnakeRat

09-03-2004, 04:53 AM

Raise/Bet/3-bet/Cap the flop. You will win this atleast 60% of the time, build a pot.

On the turn, there is no reason to expect somebody will bet into you, or bet at all.
These guys are quite passive.

There is no way to adequately protect your hand here.
This check-raise wont do it, even if successful you cannot make the field face 2 bets...

The pot would have been bigger had you raised the flop.
You are asking for disaster by trying to C/R this turn.

Qui-Gon

09-03-2004, 05:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No matter what I do on the flop, with 7 SB in the pot, no draw is going to fold.... it will never happen unless maybe the board is paired, ala AAK, and there were 2-3 raises PF. In a situation like this, you can lead out and check-raise all you want..... the draws are still going to look at the turn......

And then you are in the position of having to lead the turn, into a big pot, without getting an opportunity to make them pay 2 big bets instead of the 2 SMALL bets you charged on the flop..... they're going to keep chasing anyways...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want the draws to fold? You're a favourite to beat them, right? I want the draws to keep calling all the way, I'm making money that way. It's very unlikely (is it even possible?) that there are 6 people with you in the pot having such cards that their combined draws make you such an underdog with your strong made hand + great draw (for a full house or quads) that you'd like some of them to fold. I'd like to get their money in the pot.

You can get their money in the pot on the flop or turn of course. The difference is that you know you have the best hand now (on the flop) you don't know if you will have the best hand on the turn, and thus don't know if you'll be able to jam the pot then. I'm not sure what course of action that is the best, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't be trying to get the draws to fold.

Besides, your postition in relation to the flop bettor (MP1) is such that you'll only be able to make one player call 2 bets cold if MP1 bets again and you raise. And if he's on a flush draw he still has the odds to call, doesn't he? (the raise is still correct of course, but in the purpose of getting more money in the pot, not to make someone fold)

Am I making any sense here or is my reasoning totally flawed? Does anyone else have something to say about this?
This is very interesting and I'm not at all certain that I'm right about it. More opinions would be appreciated.

Qui-Gon

09-03-2004, 05:43 AM

Hmm, I'm really puzzled by this, can't stop thinking about it.

Now I'm thinking:

It's better to win an 8BB pot 100% of the time than to win a 15BB pot 50% of the time. This means that trying to get the draws to fold (in such a case) would be the best play... (the numbers have nothing to do with the hand discussed, they are only examples).

Does this have something to do with the correct course of action here...?

Peter Harris

09-03-2004, 06:33 AM

I bet/raise the flop.

The argument that you can raise the turn against flush drawers are defunct; after all, what flush drawer bets a blank on the turn?

You need to build a pot with the best hand. You will win over 50% of the time with this hand against flush draws and straight draws. You have equity. Take it and raise.

You don't need to "wait till the turn" with top set to protect your hand. Put chips in when you have the best of it.

The turn may be an A, K, Q and someone will lead out, allowing you a raise. Either way, the flush draws aren't going anywhere at low limits, as you said yourself.

I guess this is open to debate, but i'd lead the flop and 3-bet it.

Comments welcome,
Pete Harris

crockett

09-03-2004, 07:42 AM

I think this is silly! People are looking at this one single case.

Your goal with that set is to get as much money in the pot right up front. If your positive a c/r will work then do it. If not bet out and then 3-bet if you get a chance.

What if A K Q or J falls on the turn and SB bets? Where is your plan now? You'll of course raise and ask the field to call 2 cold, in pot that you had a chance to make bigger. Your also assumming that you'll have an opportunity to raise the turn. How do you figure that? What if no one bets on the turn? In the low levels on a board like that this is very common. If this were to be checked through on the turn it would be a disaster for you. People bet the flop and then check the turn all the time, especially if an overcard were to fall.

And of course the most important thing of all...Your C/R on the turn didn't do anything to my OESD and flush draw! If I'm UTG+2, MP1 or BB I STILL have odds to call these draws.

I know your focusing on this one little hand but there is a very good chance if you bet the flop you'll still get a chance to raise or 3-bet on the turn. There are 20 over cards that can fall making the big face card hands feel frisky and raise you, someone could hit two pair with any card that falls, a smaller set could be made, etc.

Tosh

09-03-2004, 09:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone play this any differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play preflop and the flop differently.

PokerBob

09-03-2004, 09:53 AM

I play it much differently.
I raise PF.
I bet the flop. Giving the potential for a free card with that board is a massive mistake IMO.
I bet the turn.

PokerBob

09-03-2004, 09:57 AM

You have just as many outs as the chasers. You are in the lead AND have outs. BETBETBET.

davelin

09-03-2004, 10:39 AM

There is a section in SHH where Ed Miller says that sometimes it's not always correct to re-raise on the flop in order to protect your hand. His example was pocket Kings against a board like this. Sometimes it's better to wait until the turn to protect your hand because of the size of the betting then.

Nottom

09-03-2004, 10:43 AM

My general rule of thumb is not to get tricky when out of position. Bet the flop, 3-bet the flop, bet the turn. If you think you can check-raise the flop then take a shot, but you wan tto lead on the turn. It would be a disaster for you if MP1 decides to check the turn.

I understand you want to charge the max for people to draw, but this hand is too big to give up on all that flop equity. The other benefit of raising here is that people are much more likely to play back at you on the flop and give you a chance to 3-bet/cap.

Nottom

09-03-2004, 10:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
At the end of the day, Gomez has a hand that needs to be protected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really.

Nottom

09-03-2004, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't understand that concept, read SSH....

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread the section on "two overpair hands" this is much more like the AA hand than the TT hand.

Entity

09-03-2004, 11:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is a section in SHH where Ed Miller says that sometimes it's not always correct to re-raise on the flop in order to protect your hand. His example was pocket Kings against a board like this. Sometimes it's better to wait until the turn to protect your hand because of the size of the betting then.

[/ QUOTE ]
This hand has much more equity than the example in Ed's book. I think not bothering with getting tricky is best here. This hand does not need protection as much as some are making it out to.

Rob

k000k

09-03-2004, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Getting more money into a pot that you're going to win about half the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're gonna win this WAY more than 1/2 the time.. 1/3 of the time, a draw hits and 1/3 of the time, you hit your boat. So that means 1/9th of the time, your boat beats their draw! The other 2/9 of the time their draw beats your unimproved set.

999 is top set, it is the nuts on the flop. All you have to worry about is that 2/9's of the time a draw hits, and the 1% of the time an overcard hits and someone else hits a higher set. No PF raises, so that's even less likely..

I say if you flop top set on a 2-tone flop, you win probably 75% of the time.

Jimbobobb

09-03-2004, 12:09 PM

You'll win this about 50% of the time against real holdings - say someone has a straight draw, and someone has a flush, etc etc. One or the other will come in around 50ish percent by the river, and you'll beat them a portion of the time when you boat or quad up. About 50% on the flop is a good estimate. You know these players will call you with flush draws (and they're correct to do so). Not betting doesn't make them any less correct, but it does build a pot that you'll win a good percentage of the time. Even checkraising the turn, your flush drawing opponents are still getting about the right odds to call (2 bets into a 10-12ish bb pot). I don't think this is a situation where your hand is so vulnerable you have to try to be tricky. Those with flush draws will call anyway and be correct - bet and get the most from them because you're a bigger favorite to win. Those with good straight draws will probably call anyway because they're about correct, and it's .5/1 - they're calling. What you might accomplish with this is getting the 2nd pairs and top pair crap kickers to fold (the people who are actually drawing dead) - do you want that?

k000k

09-03-2004, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You'll win this about 50% of the time against real holdings - say someone has a straight draw, and someone has a flush, etc etc. One or the other will come in around 50ish percent by the river, and you'll beat them a portion of the time when you boat or quad up. About 50% on the flop is a good estimate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh the straight draw too, slipped my mind.. Ok, I'll give you 50% (instead of 1/3) for someone to hit a draw.. But 1/3 of the time you'll outdraw their draw, so add 1/6, I'll come down a little and say you win 2/3 of the time. The times when nobody hits and you STILL lose is negligible.

flair1239

09-03-2004, 12:18 PM

I am not a fan of slowplaying a set against 6 opponents. I will consider it against 2-3 opponents depending on the flop. If I did check from early position, it would just be for a C/R attempt.

But most of the time (95%) I am betting out.

flair1239

09-03-2004, 12:25 PM

One thing that has helped me play sets aggressively on the flop against straight (even 3 suited boards) and flush draws is thinking this way.

On the flop I have (7) outs against a made flush and on the turn I pick up another (3). Further more much of the time a card that will make someone else a flush, will make you a fullhouse.

So even if you do get wacked around on the flop, you are not in horrible shape. I would even argue that against 6 other people on a three suited flop, it would not be a huge mistake to lead into it (not sure that this would be +EV, but just trying to make a point that a set is a very resilient(sp?) hand regardless of the situation.)

what

09-03-2004, 12:28 PM

Do you really think you can get a flush draw to fold on the turn? Even facing 3 bets cold they would be getting the implied odds to see the river. It's almost impossible to protect the pot from flushes and OE straight draws.

I cap the flop, cap the turn, cap the river.

flair1239

09-03-2004, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At the end of the day, Gomez has a hand that needs to be protected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree this hand needs no protection, it is the best hand on the flop, and has numerous redraws if you get behind on the turn. As a matter of fact on the turn you will have more outs than you would with a flush draw.

With 6 other people in the hand you just want to keep betting and raising, this may be erroneous thinking, but in the situation in this hand... I am not looking to fold anybody.

flair1239

09-03-2004, 12:43 PM

Not to Hijack the thread, but here are a couple examples of how I play sets; and even in these I made some mistakes. But just an example of how loose you can afford to be sometimes with sets.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, 1 fold, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button calls, BB caps, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (26.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, CO folds, Button 3-bets, BB calls $1 (All-In), UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (22.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players, 1 all-in)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, MP1 calls.

River: (31.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 31.75 BB

Results in white below: 
BB shows Kc Ac (high card, ace).
MP1 shows Ad Qc (high card, ace).
Hero shows 8d 8s (three of a kind, eights).
Button shows 7c Kd (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 31.75 BB. 

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls,

Flop: (8 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

River: (14 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Results in white below: 
BB shows 3d Ad (one pair, aces).
Hero shows 8h 8d (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 18 BB. 

My point in this post is not a rah, rah type post. But to try to make the point that if any hand will forgive reckless aggression it is a set.

Nottom

09-03-2004, 12:54 PM

You forgot to bet the river in hand 1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

flair1239

09-03-2004, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to bet the river in hand 1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The seven scared me and I got cold feet.

meep_42

09-03-2004, 01:07 PM

You MUST get money in the pot on this flop. Even against the best drawing hand I could think of 7d8d, you are a 58/42 favorite.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=482708
pokenum -h 9s 9c - 7d 8d -- 4h 6d 9d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 9d 6d 4h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9s 9c 573 57.88 417 42.12 0 0.00 0.579
8d 7d 417 42.12 573 57.88 0 0.00 0.421

With 5 people trapped for 1 more bet, plus 1 trapped for 2 on the c/r, I think this is a no-brainer. You're getting all that money back in this pot.

You're 3:1 against AKd, and have 7 outs on the turn and 10 on the river to fill up, whereas the flush draw has 8 and 7, unbeknownst to them.

Bet out or c/r the flop, make the draws pay on the turn.

-d

Gambit

09-03-2004, 01:09 PM

I guess I'm in the minority, but I agree with the way this was played by the original poster. I'll try to defend that position.

Playing from early position, one of the few weapons that you do have is the ability to check-raise with strong hands. Since the hand was limped all around pre-flop, no one suspects much strength from you at this point. The agressor on the flop is almost directly on your left which is perfect (see below). Now four players other than you call the agressor's bet which seems to indicate at least a couple of draws out there, and the agressor on some sort of lessor made hand or semi-bluff. By just calling the bet on the flop you accomplish a few things, you continue to disguise your hand and you also get to see the turn card cheaply to make sure it is not a third diamond. Once you see the turn is safe and the bets have doubled it's a perfect time to apply the pressure. Let the agressor continue to lead out to protect his hand. This is where the fact that he is almost on you direct left is an advantage. Almost all the drawing hands can call all the way around the table for a single bet before you check raise and force a second bet. Once you apply the check raise on the turn it just screams "I flopped a set!" but being a micro limit online game, the drawing players may not recognize this (or even care) and are just hoping to catch that river diamond. Here's is another factor in your advantage, a flush draw at this point typically is drawing to nine outs. With your set you can subtract two of those outs that would give you the boat (4d, 5d). In addition you may have more than one flush draw against you, meaning there are even fewer diamonds in the deck for them to draw to. Once you make that check-raise on the turn, bet/raise at every remaining opportunity...hopefully you and the previous agressor get into a raising war and you have him dominated. Of course if the river does bring a diamond, and no boat for you, you have to eject if any of the previously passive players did hang around and start betting. jmho

G

MortalNuts

09-03-2004, 01:26 PM

Hi Gomez --

You played it more like you have TT, or some other hand that is very very vulnerable to draws on the flop, than a set. With TT, you'd be forgoing a small equity edge on the flop in the hopes of pushing the substantially larger edge you will have if a turn blank falls, protecting your hand better, etc. Here the equity on every bet that goes in on the flop is ginormous -- your hand is certainly best right now, isn't as vulnerable, and has very strong redraws against any bad turn card. Besides which, the pot on the flop is far from enormous.

Basically I think you shouldn't be too worried about protecting your hand here, and should be more concerned with getting lots and lots of money in the pot. You give up way too much by not doing so.

BTW, this is quite similar to a thread from a few months ago, which features a good post by Clarkmeister : "JJ in a big pot, and waiting till the turn" (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=667 841&Forum=f3&Words=%2Bleast%20%2Binclined%20%2BJJ& Searchpage=0&Limit=50&Main=666649&Search=true&wher e=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y &olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=1#Post667841)

I also would've raised PF.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

MortalNuts

09-03-2004, 01:34 PM

From the thread I referenced, where hero holds JJ on a board of

J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif

(with, admittedly, different action indicating someone else holds a high pocket pair.)

[ QUOTE ]

I bet everybody who says to call with JJ on this flop would have raised if they had A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif and defended it by saying they want to get lots of money into the pot with their big draw. Isn't it strange that many players want to get the money in with the big draw but not the big made hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hiding

09-03-2004, 01:55 PM

You have the best hand on the flop. Bet it!!! You are ahead, everyone is trying to chase you down from this point on. Get their money into your pot as soon as possible. Sure they have draws, but you have redraws. If you don't bet and someone makes a better hand, then you let them have it. Charge them all the way to the river. If they catch their draw so be it, but get your money (and theirs) in while you have the best of it. You don't bet the flop, but after the turn, an OESD(78) could have just made their hand and then you raise? If thats what you are scared of at the flop why try and push them away on the turn, its too late. JMO

Gomez22

09-03-2004, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You have the best hand on the flop. Bet it!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because you have the best hand at any given time does NOT mean you should or have to bet it. I failed to ever see a poker LAW stating that a set must be bet from EP into 5 other players on a co-ordinated flop.

Not that I play to minimize my losses, but what is my line going to be if the turn card is a scare card?

I don't have a problem playing aggressively up front, but I don't think (like many other posters around here) that you have to bet, bet, bet or raise, raise, raise evverytime you get a hand. There are many different ways to play a hand. Don't get sucked into the mode of thinking that only 1 way is THE way.

Gambit

09-03-2004, 02:46 PM

A lot of the replies so far are advocating getting as much money as possible into the pot. But isn't a check raise on the turn the best way to do that?

Gomez built the pot up to 15.5BB. If he came out betting the flop, what would have happened? Assuming MP1 will bet/call, and all other players will check/call/fold (based on their actions in the actual hand):

ALTERNATE ENDING:

Flop: (7 SB) 4, 6, 9 (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Gomez22 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5 (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Gomez22 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) K (4 players)
BB checks, Gomez22 bets, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, BB Calls(? giving benefit of doubt; folded to check raise on turn in actual hand)

Final Pot: 13.50 BB (more likely 12.50 BB)

This is opposed to the 15.5 BB generated by check-raising the turn. I know a lot of this is supposition, and if MP1 raised things might be different, bu tI am basing my assumption on the fact that he just called down after the check raise. Plus if MP1 did raise my bet on the flop you would have lost more opponents when they had to cold call two bets as opposed to them being trapped into calling a single bet and then having to call a raise. jmho

G

flair1239

09-03-2004, 02:53 PM

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You have the best hand on the flop. Bet it!!!

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Just because you have the best hand at any given time does NOT mean you should or have to bet it. I failed to ever see a poker LAW stating that a set must be bet from EP into 5 other players on a co-ordinated flop.

Not that I play to minimize my losses, but what is my line going to be if the turn card is a scare card?

I don't have a problem playing aggressively up front, but I don't think (like many other posters around here) that you have to bet, bet, bet or raise, raise, raise evverytime you get a hand. There are many different ways to play a hand. Don't get sucked into the mode of thinking that only 1 way is THE way.

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I get where your coming from and I don't think anyone is saying that this is a horrible play. I also understand that it easy to feel ganged up on here sometimes. Also understand that nobody is trying to denigrate your ability.

As for the hand in question, I just feel that in the majority of cases a set does not require protection. I think there is a strong case to be made that the only hands you will get to fold are those that you have already dominated (2-pair for instance). In the hand in question your check raise made the cold callers odds 5.25/1. That still makes a flush draw profitable, even if the flush draw knew that you had a set he would still have 7 outs would only need about 6-1 to call. Someone with a straight draw would only need 4.75/1 to call. So all these people have been saying is that your turn raise was actually for value; because it does not really protect your hand. The only thing it would do is to fold hands that could not beat you anyway.

So since we agree that we are betting for value regardless of whether it is on the flop or the turn, the argument becomes how to get the most money in the pot. By betting into the crowd on the flop, you would be offering 8-1, which could would probably make it correct for a gutshot to call and the nut flush draw might raise, which would let you 3-bet.

The second point that people have been making is, even if you get behind on the turn. You have redraws.

As for your line on the turn, if a diamond came would you throw your hand away? You would have 10 outs to the probable best hand. You would only need 3.6-1 to call. As a matter of fact if I understand the concept of value betting correctly if you knew that (4) people would call your bet and stay in regardless you would be making money on the bet (is this correct?).

So any way my view is that you can't protect your hand from the hands that can beat you. You know you have the best of it on the flop, you have a above average redraws, and the only hands that will fold are ones that cannot beat you (or don't have proper odds to draw if they can).

Again not trying to be a jerk or close minded just giving an opinion. Which is why you posted this in the first place..right?

Hiding

09-03-2004, 02:58 PM

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There are many different ways to play a hand. Don't get sucked into the mode of thinking that only 1 way is THE way.

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Absolutely, I agree there is more than one way to play any hand. It's just my opinion, but I want that pot to grow.

Scare card on the turn: If someone gives me a reason to I'll slow down. (I do like your turn check raise here, and as stated above it worked) Even with a scare card on the turn I have 11 outs to improve on the river.

Gomez22

09-03-2004, 05:49 PM

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I get where your coming from and I don't think anyone is saying that this is a horrible play. I also understand that it easy to feel ganged up on here sometimes. Also understand that nobody is trying to denigrate your ability.

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I don't feel any of the above.... I jsut want those that harp on betting here to understand why it's not always the best play to make. Most of the replies here have been along the lines of bet or check-raise the flop, but no one gives support to their reasons why, save for "you have the best hand" and "charge the draws", etc.

Most of these statements, although they have merit (to an extent) fail to "think outside the box". Alot of players (especially newbies) get to thinking along a certain way to play and can't fathom anything else.

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I just feel that in the majority of cases a set does not require protection.

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I agree, yet I disagree to a certain degree. Of course I have redraws to a scare card or a person making a better hand on the turn, but I'm also out of position throughout the hand, so the turn is my best opportunity to trap players and raise for numerous reasons here. Also, against a field this large, it's highly doubtful that 2 pair will fold given the sixe of the pot.

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As for your line on the turn, if a diamond came would you throw your hand away?

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Of course not, but I don't think I can get as aggressive as I'd like to if that becomes the case. Then it's time to check/call down if there is substantial action behind me and hopefully fill up on the river to get in some check-raising (dependant on action behind and players remaining).

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Again not trying to be a jerk or close minded just giving an opinion. Which is why you posted this in the first place..right?

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Not thinking you're being a jerk or anything resembling that at all, just trying to show another line of play in a situation like this that many others here may not see or be aware of.

Of course I put the hand up for discussion and to get some opinions, but I think that some posters (especially the newer ones) are too close-minded to see how or why various plays are made during the course of a hand. Against a smaller field, I agree with raising, but against a larger field, I think many times, waiting for the "coast to clear" can be a far more effective play, but I think it is far more effective against a larger field when the turn is "clear".

I should have stated that my default play with this kind of hand against a large field out of position on a co-ordinated board is to wait until the turn when and if it lokos safe to reveal my hand..... maybe a touch weak on the flop itself, but more aggressive on the turn.

Gomez22

09-03-2004, 05:54 PM

I agree with you on this, and am really glad you took the time to do some math and supposition because my lazy ass doesn't like formulating this crap.

Although there can be a case made that I could have check-raised the flop here, many have said that betting out would have been their play......

Maybe you could have put 3-bets in if you lead, but maybe everyone else just calls and you have to lead again on the turn, getting callers again.

There's no way to tell would COULD have happened or what WOULD have happened if I had played the flop differently..... maybe at the end, the pot it 22 big bets, but then again, maybe it's only 10 big bets.

Nottom

09-03-2004, 08:06 PM

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I don't feel any of the above.... I jsut want those that harp on betting here to understand why it's not always the best play to make. Most of the replies here have been along the lines of bet or check-raise the flop, but no one gives support to their reasons why, save for "you have the best hand" and "charge the draws", etc.

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Reasons to get money in on the flop:
You have the best hand.
People are more likely to give you action on the flop with weak holdings.
Your pot equity is enormous.
You don't want to check the turn and give a chance for MP1 to take a free card.
If a flush card comes on the turn, what are you going to do?

Reasons to wait for the turn:
You might charge the draws an extra SB.

To me this seems clear.

I really think you are misapplying the whole wait till the turn concept here with this hand. As another poster already pointed out, you are playing this more like you have JJ than 99 and I hope you see how those are very different.