Required to tell opponent my door card at Mirage

I was playing 5-10 stud at the Mirage today and the dealer made a ruling which almost caused me to get into my first-ever arguement with a dealer.


I limped in with rolled-up 5s (Later, I'll be posting another topic in the "Other Poker Games" section about whether you should limp or raise with small trips). A player behind me raised on 3rd street with a King showing and I called.


On 4th street, I got a 7. On 5th street, I got another 7 to make 5s full. I was heads up against the 3rd street raiser and bet since my board was high.


At this point, my opponent asked me what my door card was. I asked the dealer if I was required to answer his question under the assumption that the dealer certainly would not require me to do so. To my surprise, the dealer told me I had to tell my opponent what my door card was. I asked again and emphasized the word REQUIRED and the dealer told me I must tell my opponent my door card.


I was stunned and would have called a floor person over to make a ruling if it weren't for the fact that my opponent probably feared trip 7s. So I just told him the truth- the 5 was my door card. I assume he put me on two pair rather than trips and cetainly not a full house.


The hand continued and my 5s full won a decent pot.


But I still can't believe the ruling made by the dealer. Is this common practice? How could I be required to help my opponent by telling him the order my cards were received in?


And at the Mirage?

I am surprised too, although only partially. I don't play much stud (more because I don't like 1-5 which is the only stud I could play on a regular basis where I live and don't have the bankroll for, or the chance to play the bigger games than not liking stud)so I don't know all the floor rules. But I have found the Las Vegas 5-10 stud players to be some of the most obnoxious opponents I have sat down with. I made a mistake in a Mirage 5-10 game once, and a ruling was required. I told the floor what happened ACCURATELY (the dealer did too to his credit), and was prepared for his decision to go either way.(I screwed up) It was no big deal, whether he decided for or against me (one $5 bet at stake) and he decided in my favor. Well, I got to hear about it constantly from the local 5-10 specialists who have been refining their bad attitude from the 70's and 80's at MGM and Bally's, to the '90's at the Mirage. (I first played with these types at the end of Bally's poker room.) It was so bad I finally quit because these guys wouldn't shut up over $5. I tried about ten times to say something to get these guys to just let it go. To no avail. This seems typical of this bunch.


So, this is a long way of saying that there are a lot of jackasses who play 5-10 stud in Las Vegas. Was the guy asking a clueless opponent or a bad attitude local? I ask because my approach would be different. If he was a clueless player, be happy. He can't remember your doorcard. If it was an obnoxious local, I would say I can't remember. He can't remember, I can't remember either. Why am I assumed to have a better memory? If the floor required me to remember or have the hand killed or something, I would tell him.


I would have asked the floor about the rule. I understand it on the first round if someone folds out of turn or something, but not when it's heads-up on 5th. If it were a shot-taking local I would make fun of him for not being able to remember until the floor made me shut up or the guy went on tilt and lost all his money. I'd keep asking him his name as a test to see if he could remember that. Ask if he could remember all nine digits of his Social Security number. Ask if he had to look at his driver's license for his address when he went home. Real nice-guy stuff. Well, maybe not. I try to not be a complete jerk. But I would be sorely tempted if the player were like some of the guys I've played with in that game.


BTW- if you are a local who plays that game, I'm sure you're not one of the obnoxious ones. :-)

I believe this guy was a local (about 60-70 years old) but he wasn't a jerk. He was actually a good, solid player player. In fact, we were talking to each other after the hand and didn't have any problems.


He asked the question for one basic reason: He couldn't remember! And wanted me to tell him! I thought about calling over a floor person but since I didn't want to take the chance that he would put me on trip 7s, I just told him the truth to disguise the strength of my hand.


This only happened a few hours ago. I'm still trying to figure it out.


And yes, I'm also a local but only since last May. And I moved up to 5-10 stud on Labor Day so I'm not one of the obnoxious ones you've played against.

Then I'd tell him, but ask the floor for future reference. I can't believe that's the rule either.

sure you are required to tell your door card. not verbally of course but you are required to keep your upcards in the order they arrived even though the dealer may throw them sloppily at you. otherwise you would get to arrange them at your wim. dealer was right here this time. but remember the dealer can never make a ruling, so only accept ones that go in your favor and call the floorperson for the others.

I believe that you are suppose to keep your upcards in their proper order. Thus you automatically tell your opponents what your door card is.

Do you move your up cards or touch them at all? The dealer is responsable for laying them down in the right order. Many times I have seen players ask the dealer what the proper order is on to move a card hiding another. I guess the dealer also didn't know your door card, that would have avoided everything if he could have just said your door card was the 5.

I don't remember moving my cards. It's possible that the dealer threw a card sloppily and I then moved it without any thought. However, that would just be a coincidence


Ray Zee said I wasn't required to verbally tell my opponent my door card but that's exactly what the dealer required me to do in this hand. In other situations, I would have asked a floor person to make a ruling. But, in this case, it seemed far better to just give my opponent the information he wanted since the truth would most likely keep him in the hand to pay off my full house. It also prevented me from being the table jerk since both my opponent and the dealer were telling me that I was required to do it and all the other players were staring at me and waiting to see what I would do.


I was surprised that the dealer himself didn't ask for a floor person. In my experience in smaller poker rooms, dealers will quickly request a floor person to make any ruling even in situations where the decision seems obvious.

remember in almost all cardrooms the dealer has no authority to make decisions. so you can always call the floorperson or handle it so it works out in your best interests. in this case you wanted the cards to be right so just phyically putting them in the correct order is all that needed to be done. you have no obligation to say a word during a poker hand unless you are protesting a decision that went against you. all actions can be indicated by hand or head movements of some kind.

but in stud poker all players need to keep their cards in order. dealers routinely deal the cards where they get messed up but proper ettiquette and the rules say that you are to have them in order.

I am surprised you were outraged.


I recently found out that when the cards are dealt the order should be preserved so it clear what your 3rd 4th etc cards are. To manipulate them (that is change their order) is not legal. (And is hardly ethical).


Granted not many dealers deal this way and usually the cards are a jumbled mess but clearly w/these rules in order it should be clear you have to what your door card is if asked...

My view is that it's my opponent's responsibility to remember the exposed cards and the order in which they were dealt. I shouldn't be required to assist him in any way.


I think a fair comparison is if my opponent asked me what exposed cards of the other players have been folded. Why would I volunarily give him information which could help him play his hand better?


If any player violates a cardroom's rules by rearranging his cards, then he should be given a warning and required to correct the order of his cards immediately.


But since no rule was violated, why should I be required to give an opponent information which may help him win the pot from me? I don't make a habit of intentionally giving away useful information to my opponents.