Pushing with 99 on a tight table

[ChuckNorris]

Partypoker 10+1

Was this completely standard, or do you wait for a better position / hand / later level before pushing? The table was
pretty tight, and people were protective against steals. Not much limping, but not many succesful steals either.

I suppose I'm worried that the two limpers made my steal attempt too risky. That is the reason why I went all-in instead of just raising 3BB's; I didn't want callers.

Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 8: ClintD1220 ( $1370 )
Seat 9: tazntran ( $202 )
Seat 1: zenka ( $945 )
Seat 4: TY372621 ( $50 )
Seat 2: TheBGates ( $1340 )
Seat 10: brian123321 ( $520 )
Seat 7: hero ( $997 )
Seat 5: kid4st ( $1080 )
Seat 6: PaNcReAs66 ( $1496 )

Level:4 Blinds(50/100)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ 9d 9h ]
zenka calls [100].
2 fold
kid4st calls [100].
PaNcReAs66 folds.
OlaviK is all-In.
2 fold
brian123321 is all-In.
2 fold
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 7c, 7s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3c ]

brian123321 shows [ Kd, Ah ] two pairs, kings and sevens.
hero shows [ 9d, 9h ] two pairs, nines and sevens.
hero wins 477 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, nines and sevens.
brian123321 wins 1290 chips from the main pot with two pairs, kings and sevens.

[RobGW]

I think this is a good play. You only have 10x the big blind. A raise of 3x the BB will be a third of your stack. You don't want to do that. With two limpers there is $350 in the pot already. No one has shown strength. You still have enough chips to make people fold. If you wait too much longer you wont. Pushing here and taking down this pot would be a good result for you. Unfortunately you ran into big slick.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I agree good play.

[ilya]

I think pushing is a good play.

Raising 3xbb is no good even if you have something like 15xbb, as there are already two limpers. You'd need to raise 4-5xbb.

[Lori]

Why push into an UTG limper on a tight table with a small pair?

What would you suppose that a tight player has when he limps (I'm amazed it was only AK), do you think a tight player would limp and then fold?

Just something to consider.

Lori

[Tosh]

I limp behind.

[ilya]

Well, it's a $10, so I doubt that the table is _that_ tight. The only two hands I can see the limpers having that beat hero's are TT and JJ. But they could also easily have 66-88 or AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ, JTs. It's doubtful the limpers will call with a hand that hero dominates, but I think hero himself will be dominated rarely enough that the push is profitable. But I did some rough calculations and I think it's close. So actually I think I've changed my mind, I prefer limping. If hero's stack is 800 instead of 1000, then I think it becomes a push.

[kamelion44]

Well it's precisely because he's a tight player that he might fold. Having said that, I think I probably limp, just to see a flop, and hope for no overcards, where you can get the main chunk of your money in when you're now a 75% favorite instead of 54% or something. Also, you're not in dire shape yet. You still have almost 1k in chips, with the blinds only 50-100. I'd probably limp, see a flop, and still have enough ammo left to fight another day.

[willperkins]

I can't fault your play, but I would have limped to see a flop. WIth t997 left in chips and the blinds at 50/100, I would have been looking for a spot to be the first one in to try a steal with a bet of something like t500. I would not try to steal with two limpers already in.

[reecelights]

Not a bad play, it turned out to be a coin flip.

However, with 9 players still in and you in 5th (2 off the money), I think it's too early in the tourney to push with 99. Save a 10xBB bet for when you're 5th of 5 or 6. I would limp, and still be trying to flop a set with them. If you had limped, Button could call and BB could check. If UTG came out firing on the flop, you could get away from the hand and still have almost T$900. If you limp and catch a set (7.51-1 odds), you double or triple up.

If BB had pushed, you could then see what UTG did. Even if they fold, I might muck. I don't mind giving up 100 here because I'm patient and play pretty well short-stacked, which you're not yet. You're not short stacked until you have 5xBB.

There's plenty of time to catch a shorter stack player going all-in or catch a better hand than 99. Or, if you extract a mere 350 on a later hand from the chip leader, you're in 3rd or 4th. By pushing here you're either in 1st or 8th place. If you limp and catch, you're in 1st; limp and get away from the hand, you're still in 5th.

Then again, I'm a grinder, and probably too conservative.

[Lori]

Well it's precisely because he's a tight player that he might fold.

Tight players rarely call UTG with a hand they intend to fold.

Lori

[reecelights]

I'm stupid and tired. Yes, you are considered Short stacked at 10xBB, but I still think it's too tight and too early for a drastic play.

[adanthar]

Small pairs, big suited connectors (QJs-JTs), KQo and similar hands are all hands I now limp/fold to a big raise UTG before the bubble, assuming I have the stack to get away with folding. Think that's wrong? (Serious question.)

That said, I would just limp here since you aren't all that desperate yet. On a table without that many desperate short stacks, or with 300 fewer chips, I'd push.

[willie]

i somewhat disagree, the play is completely fine and the player could be limping in almost anything up to king queen with ahand that he would ditch to a raise like this.

tight players can occassionally limp in with a hand as bad as ace ten suited that would be pitched in the muck to this kind of aggression.

often too, someone will attempt to limp 55-88 in ep hoping to catch a cheap set, in which case a push would put you in beautiful shape if they put you on 2 overs.

[Lori]

I may well limp with a small pair, but on my travels I have found that tight players (as opposed to good ones)are as likely to limp with Aces as any other hand.

In the 99 scenario I'd rather limp and take the stack of a potential slowplayer, than stick my stack in and pray that they don't have a monster.
If you get through the first limper, the pot is usually yours, but I don't think it's neccessary to gamble so early in the game.

Personally I don't play KQs AJs or any suited cons UTG except for the very occasional disguise value.

Lori

[Lori]

Think that's wrong?

Personally yes, I'd rather mini-raise and offer my hand some kind of protection if I were going to go down this route.

Although my own preference is to mini-raise as an encouragement to get a reraise from someone, on a particuarly tight table the mini-raise is far preferable to a call.
On a loose table, I'd rather ditch and wait for a 'real' hand.

Lori

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
Why push into an UTG limper on a tight table with a small pair?

What would you suppose that a tight player has when he limps (I'm amazed it was only AK), do you think a tight player would limp and then fold?

Just something to consider.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

The limpers did fold.

He was called by the BB.

[Lori]

The limpers did fold.

He was called by the BB

Not to be rude, but what happened is irrelevant to improving (y)our game.

Lori

[jac394]

Based on the hand history, the caller was the BB, not one of the limpers (the positions are out of order - kind of confused me for a minute).

On to comments about the hand - when you state not much limping going on, and then there are two limpers in front of you, that would set off some warning bells. With 99, I'd be a little worried about whether or not I have the best hand at this point. With nine people left at level 4 in the tourney, you have to figure that there are a couple Ax and Kx minimum out there, and with nine players left, the holders of Ax or Kx will probably be looking for a reason to play those hands. I would either push or fold here, not limp, and since you were in CO, I'd probably go ahead and push since I definitely want the blinds out. Just bad luck that one of the blinds had a hand. You did push the limpers out of the pot, and I'd guess they each held Ax.

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
The limpers did fold.

He was called by the BB

Not to be rude, but what happened is irrelevant to improving (y)our game.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, just pointing out why you shouldn't be surprised that UTG limp-called with AK, cos he didn't /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[chill888]

See post above on 10 10 and increase the emphasis.

Terrible push IMHO

[Potowame]

I wouldn't be sure that the UTG didn't have AKos

A tight player may lay down AK in this position. a All-in and a call, is not the ideal situation to call with AK.

[chill888]

Lots of $10 Party players here make lots of posts about ROI.

One needs to cash in a 10 player S&G 45% of the time to get a 36% ROI (assume = 1st, 2nd, 3rds).

So why would anyone be OK with getting a hand like 99 heads up (or even against 2 others) all-in early in a tourney and have a 50%sh chance of already being out of the money?

Makes no sense to this rock.

Regards