"I hope he loses."

I was playing $20-40 today and there's this one evil guy nobody likes. He was lobbying and a couple guys were talking about him. They were so happy because the bad man was losing.


We often read that being emotionally aloof is a good idea if profit is a primary motive for playing. I've come to recognize the "I hope he loses" feeling as a symptom that something is wrong with my game that day.


Tommy

Tommy,


IMO, I don't think your "I hope he loses" feeling is necessarily destructive or an indicator of below average performance in and of itself. I agree that it can be very deteriorating if you make it your particular quest for the day.


When I'm confronted with feelings like this at the table, or when a fellow opponent expresses his disgust, I usually focus on the fact that he "will get what he deserves". I take comfort in the fact that this will happen sooner with bad players. It makes it even more worthwhile when you watch this person piss away a boatload of checks in a session.


I find these feelings consistent with competitive players who like to win. There's certainly nothing wrong with a healthy competitive ego, as long as its held in check.


Mike

Something is wrong with your game only in the sense that you should be concentrating on Tommy winning the maximum, not the evil guy losing. To deny natural thoughts, such as hoping that the bad man loses, is to deny your general nature as a good human being, and this too can be negative.


It's not different in any business. I recently heard that two big competitors of mine were in competition for a particular account. I am not bidding on the account, so it really makes no difference to me who wins and who loses. We had a meeting to discuss the ramifications for our business and the consensus was that it really makes no difference to us.


The consensus was also that we hoped company "A" was victorious and company "B" loses. Why? Because the people in company A seem to be nice people and the people in company B seem to be jerks.


It's not a case that the jerks, with the addition of this account, will be tougher competitors for us than the nice guys. It's just human nature to hope the goods guys win and the bad guys finish last.


I feel much better when the bad guys lose. Why shouldn't I?


Regards, Andy

Absolutely!


I do find myself rooting for the underdog but only so he might spread the wealth.

It's more that I should be remaining aloof. I want him to win if he's a poor player.

you are absolutely correct, as usual, and indicates just how much farther along you are than the typical"high limit" player on this forum...gl

Mike,


You brought up a seperate topic and I'm glad you did.


"I take comfort in the fact that this [get what they deserve] will happen sooner with bad players. It makes it even more worthwhile when you watch this person piss away a boatload of checks in a session. I find these feelings consistent with competitive players who like to win."


This is where I'm way different than you. I must make it very clear than I'm not suggesting that your view is "wrong" in even the slightest way. Just doing some examination here.


I'm not competitive, and I think this personality trait is an essential part of why I do well.


Countless times I've heard words or seen body gestures that say this, "If he plays long enough, he'll go broke."


Somehow this lends solice to the "good" player after a bad beat. Well, I never ever get this feeling. And from what I've seen, the other pros don't either.


If I have something of value to teach in this area, and I'm not sure that I do, it is this:


Admittedly, we are wired-up with a sense of justice. Applied to poker, it comes out: "He plays every flop, so he should go broke, and I'll be glad when he does, because justice will have been served."


But this view stands in direct conflict to what I consider to be a much more sensible view, namely, that we all play exactly the same way; at our turn, we make whatever betting decision we please.


I've seen many players hang themselves with their competitive drive. In a game like basketball, the drive is essential in that it results in good, long practice, and on the court, it keeps the stamina up and the blood pumping, and a wuss like me, who doesn't much care who wins or loses, would make a pathetically bad basketball player.


But in poker, as in golf, where calm and steadiness and consistent aloofness are so often cited as winning traits, I think that, for some players, they'd do better to willfully keep their competitive drive in check, and when a "bad player" loses OR wins, think nothing of it, and tee up for the next shot with a clear head.


Tommy

"I want him to win if he's a poor player."


You just don't want him to beat you, right? :-)


My sense of justice wants the good player to win, much more so than it wants the bad player to lose. What scares the crap out of me is when I see a good player get crushed, day after day. I see him playing good and playing tight. Holding it together, through the toughest times, and then, again, his AA gets cracked. Again, he properly buys the free card, and takes it, and misses.


When a bad player gets hot and hits their J-4's and 8-5's, it makes me feel, oddly, good. But NOT because it means he has more chips for me to win later. It's never because of that. What I see is justice. The man sees many flops, so he deserves this rush. He's paid for it, and will continue to pay for it. And that's his choice to make. When I see a bad player having big fun and stacking chips, I'm glad for him, truly. He's finally getting what he payed for. When his J-4 gets home, most people sense injustice. I see it the other way around.


Tommy

"I feel much better when the bad guys lose. Why shouldn't I?"


You're right, of course. One reason I brought this up is because there is only one player, out of all these hundreds, that I root against. And I've been feeling weird about it, like I shouldn't feel that way. But hey, this guy is truly evil.


Tommy

It would seem that yor attitude goes along perfectly with the EV method of play. If your game is on and you've made the investments when you've had the best of it, you've already won regardless of the outcome of a particular hand or session.


I always analogize it to blackjack where you're only playing when the deck is rich and you get 99 against a 7. The play is to split when the count is >3 and there's dbl down after splitting. Once you've made the play if your count is right you've done all you can to maximize your EV. If it doesn't hold up this time then the time it will is just a bit closer.


To get angry or vengeful against people who do not play as well as you do is just silly. It's like getting mad at a free throw shooter who keeps his eyes closed because he makes 1 or 2 out of 10.

Again to blckjack.


It's like seeing a lol split tens time and again and finally she gets bullets on both. Yes, she's worked for it, she's paid for it and she does deserve it.

<font color= red> There is great unpleasantness in wishing misfortune to others. Is evil best repelled by evil?


The only justice in poker is ethical, honest play, with no collusion and proper enforcment of the rules.


Sredni will not accept that "good play" winning is justice.


Justice is the process not the result.


Believing in result taints application.


Sredni Vashtar.</font>

odd that this subject should come up now


just a few days ago while playing at a table where there was a "bad guy" who had gone to the men's room--some other player told the rest of us that he hopes "bad guy" loses--there was general agreement


which started me to thing----do they ever feel that way about me??? think about it...

paranoid does not mean they aren't really talking about you...gl

tommy sez: "Admittedly, we are wired-up with a sense of justice. Applied to poker, it comes out: "He plays every flop, so he should go broke, and I'll be glad when he does, because justice will have been served.""


hopefully im not repeating something someone said elsewhere, but it is because of your posts about things like "entitlement disease" that i have stopped thinking this way and i really do believe it has helped me improve my attitude about the game and increased my win rate. i also find myself pissing off pointless bets and raises less and less against players like this when i know they have rivered me. instead i just take a deep breath and check or muck. AND i never ever show my cards anymore either--ive really noticed the positive effects of this on my table image at 10-20. so thank you again for your contributions on topics like these.


anyways, when a fishy A2C type is in the hand and i am not i am secretly rooting for them inside: i want them to win as much as possible so they will return to the game. i always commend them on a hand well played, smile at them, and make small talk if they seem to like that sort of thing (im usually directly to their left, so this is easy to do). i wonder if i am going too far in some way? i can sometimes sense that the tighter players really resent my kindness towards them. could this in anyway be negative?

No he can beat me if he likes.


I truly like and enjoy playing with the gamblers at the table. I don't much care for the occasional jerk.


And yes, when players lose too much or get beat I do empathize with them. We've all been there.


Even so, I will still raise the strong player that's down but would not dream of check-raising the gambler who winning today.


Part of me tries to stay above the emotion and the noise of the table but that does not allow me to enjoy playing.


Thanks for the insights


Mike N

It was late. That reponse was off the cuff.


I don't usually root for anybody. Usually watching the play or if I'm playing the "B" game I'm daydreaming.

Without the results, we can't judge the process. The end result, be it winning, getting the girl, getting to live in a box in the shed instead of in the woods in the rain; whatever it may be is how we judge the process.


If we've seen the "good" outcome, then we have that to compare to the "bad". With these established in our minds, we can evaluate ourselves as we follow the process.


While the process itself may be the immediate justice, without an end point, the "result", then the process can hold no moral values at all. Be they just, unjust or simply amoral.


There can be no justice without the possibility of a victory, otherwise it's a case of marching in place.


As an example, while it was likely a "just" outcome, was the method in which Mrs. Ropp left our earthly coil truly a "just" one?


Jeff

By your own statement, you've defined the, "I hope he loses", as a valuable benefit in your game. Since you prefer the unemotional interactions with the game, the simple fact that you've reached the "IHHL" state makes that emotion a worthwhile indicater to you.


I don't think you should try to suppress it. Exactly the opposite. Even if it means you have to get up and leave the table to sort it out. Sit down in a corner and ask yourself, "What am I missing here that's got me to the point of actively wishing ill on this guy?" Has that headache that's been lurking behind your eyes since this morning gotten worse and you've been too wrapped up in the game to notice? Has the guy in question's behavior pushed you further into your own play far enough that you've become rigid in how you're dealing with the cards? Has it done the opposite and caused you to shift gears and you simply blew the shift?


Is the "IHHL" feeling telling you something about the overall character of the game? Have the two rocks started to loosen up so they can "get him" and somehow you missed those clues?


Don't discount the feeling. Regardless of the "right" or the "wrong" aspects of the feeling, a feeling is ALWAYS valid. Even if it does nothing more than remind you that you've got a good, old fashioned, personality clash with this guy. The simple fact that it bothers you to have these thoughts come up in the game means you're dedicating brain time to dealing with the thoughts, your reactions to them, analyzing where they come from, etc. Sit down and make a deliberate effort to sort out where they're from, why it bothers you, how it effects your game. Find out if you start to feel that way after the two rocks loosen up in such a way that you haven't caught their gear change. The information is valuable regardless of how it gets to you.


Okay, pop psychology done for today. It may also be that the guy is just an evil minded old prick who would honestly make everyone feel better if he lost his ass and never came back. Sometimes the feelings actually are that obvious and that true.


Jeff

Turn turn turn.


Spikey believes that your feeling of wishing him to lose probably came from the man himself wishing you to lose.


Spikey thinks that you are very wise not to wish others ill, but sometimes we still get those feelings because others do it to us.


Although this type of thinking is often dismissed, Spikey believes that things literally do turn turn turn.


Also, Spikey doesn't use this writing style of Sredni's very often, but he thinks it is appropriate for this message too.

Being competitive in poker has everything to do with outplaying your opponent(s) and almost nothing to do with winning a particular hand or a winning in a particular session. If you get your opponent in a situation where they put in a lot of money into a pot, you know you’re an 8-1 favorite, and they proceed to outdraw your hand you have won the battle. If I’m against a player that exploits some weakness of mine I’m going to work as hard as I can to shore up that weakness. That’s being competitive in poker in my mind.

I hear ya Spikey, it's best to keep the karma clean, lest fate reach down and grab you by the short and curlies

As an example, while it was likely a "just" outcome, was the method in which Mrs. Ropp left our earthly coil truly a "just" one?


There is no doubt in Sredni's mind that justice prevailed. Sredni may have some biasings.


Sredni wishes others to ponder that acts of omission are sometimes as great as commission.


Sredni Vashtar

Baron,


"Since you prefer the unemotional interactions with the game, the simple fact that you've reached the "IHHL" state makes that emotion a worthwhile indicater to you."


Bingo.


"Don't discount the feeling. Regardless of the "right" or the "wrong" aspects of the feeling, a feeling is ALWAYS valid."


We are so on the same page.


"Okay, pop psychology done for today."


:-)


Tommy

"Also, Spikey doesn't use this writing style of Sredni's very often, but he thinks it is appropriate for this message too."


Tommy peers through a morning window onto the sun-speckled trees beyond and touches the peace of Sredni.

Mike,


I was thrilled and shocked while reading your post. Thrilled that your awareness of entitlement-disease combined with not showing hands has improved your results. Shocked, because, well, it seems like you've been pretty much on my ass lately. And that's cool. We're all here to bounce ideas around and learn. Know that your post came as a refreshing lull in the crossfire.


"A fishy type ... i always commend them on a hand well played, smile at them, and make small talk if they seem to like that sort of thing ... i wonder if i am going too far in some way?"


Don't underestimate the reading ability of anyone. We are all VERY good at it. I've seen many times when a fishy player makes a questionable play, and a studious plays pays compliment, and it is SO obviously not sincere. This serves only as an insult, IMO. I think it's best to reserve all compliments for when they are genuine.


"the tighter players really resent my kindness towards them [the fishy types]. could this in anyway be negative?"


Sure, for the tighties.


Tommy

I knew this guy, he fixed cars. And nothing ever rattled him.


He was a karmachanic.

*

The serenity is only an illusion. Within the trees a thousand battles for life rage on. The sun seeks to find and burn you and rages all the mightier for not being able to do so. Still, accept the calm while the eye of the hurricane passes over you.

"I've seen many times when a fishy player makes a questionable play, and a studious plays pays compliment, and it is SO obviously not sincere"


yeah i know exactly what you mean. i try to aim more for a smiling pat on the back type of gesture towards the fish when he sucks out on the river. since they are playing the game like a game of craps, where theyre looking to see the cards go their way, get a string of good luck, etc, i figure i want to encourage their elation (thereby encouraging their poor play). and there is something to be said for the fact that they *paid* for it (if not in this session, than certainly in previous ones), as others have mentioned.


so i might say something naive like "you had a straight? wow!" or "big pot!" rather than "nice hand" or "well played". since im under 30 a lot of players at the table automatically assume i couldnt possibly know how to play poker so comments like this just encourage them to pay me off when i hit.


as for me being a bit coarse before on a few of your posts, i was just trying to call them as i saw them and i figure at this point that a bit of criticism might be more useful than another "tommy, youre a genius!" post since you seem to get enough of those. im glad you take everything i say strictly in the spirit of learning.

"I knew this guy, he fixed cars. And nothing ever rattled him.


He was a karmachanic."


I knew this guy, he fixed the deck. And nothing ever rattled him either.


He was a cardamachanic, heh

Who do you think you are? A superstar. WELL HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!


Distant Karma's got you.

I had a friend who specialized in fixing old VolksWagens. She was absolutely fantastic with a wrench. Her parents had named her, "Gennevieve", but we just caled her, Kharman-Gena"


;-)

Pitnicker on the loose ...


"Who do you think you are? A superstar. WELL HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!"


Actually, that's "Who in the hell do you think you are?"


"Who do you think you are" comes right after "Mr. Bigstuff."


:-)


Tommy