K8o in the SB 15-30, HUGE pot.

this ended up being a really huge pot (like 26 big bets or something) and we're supposed to play our best in the big pots where there's more on the line right? well how'd i do in this one? i was really really thinking hard during the hand on how i wanted to approach such a large pot and give myself the best chance. as it turned out i was drawing real thin against a flopped set of ducks that rivered quads, but that's not the point, the point is how'd i play this one? perfectly?


i have red K8o in the $10 small blind. it's 9 handed and all but one player limps. i call, bb checks. 8 of us see the flop which is:


KT2 rainbow. i check, bb bets. the bb bets a lot on the flop regardless of preflop action or whether or not he has a hand. everyone calls and then the cutoff raises. he's pretty aggressive and does not need a great hand to do this. the button cold calls. i cold call. bb calls as does the everyone else. 8 of us see the turn card


which is an 8 that puts two spades on board. i check, everyone else checks to the cutoff who bets, button calls, i checkraise, bb folds, 3 people (including the guy sitting on 22) call, the cutoff folds (!) and the button calls.


the river is an offsuit 2. i bet, everyone folds to 2222 who raises, button reluctantly folds, i reluctantly call knowing im beat. the end.


perfect on every street?

what you have to realize is that a hand like the turtle (K8) (not that there are many hands like the turtle) is a very double edged sword.


if youre not careful youll get sliced up real bad, which is why the safe money is on folding preflop.


brad

With this many people seeing the flop and the cutoff raising that many players on the flop, you are surely beaten, probably in more than one spot. There is a straight draw out there as well which is more than a likely holding for someone to have in a large unraised pot like this. You got a cheap play in the small blind but with this many people you need to flop 2 pair or a set. I think a fold is in order on the flop rather than calling a cold raise. You could already be up against top two pair and drawing to a running pair of 8's. That's just my opinion and it's probably not worth much anyways, I'm still pretty new but felt I would chime in on this one.


Bob S.

Playing the turtle (thanks, brad!) is ok in a family pot, but being unsuited is not so good in a near-family pot.


Fold the flop. You made a good check, as you had no position with a weak kicker and limited improvement potential. But when it's a bet and a raise to you, you really are drawing thin, even with these pot odds.


Fight the mentality of "this pot's too big to stay

out of!"

I would have folded the flop when facing 2 cold. And this is coming from a player who is not afraid to mix it up multiway with TP/NK.

folding preflop getting 26 to 1 for a $5 call is absurd. a call is merited here with absolutely any hand no matter how ugly or how badly it can torture you post flop.

since your new:


yeah a fold here on the flop is something to consider but there's this saying (one of the few poker sayings that's true) that says when the pot is big tend towards calling. so i called (the pot's really big at this point and im not necessarily beaten given the field i was up against.


you are right about this though: big multiway pots means a big hand will usually take it down.

the way i see it is that i had more than great odds to try and draw to the river looking for kings up, even given the fact that i may have been drawing near dead to KT or a set. so on the flop i was trying to do whatever i could to have good options in case i hit an 8 on the turn. that's why i didnt strongly consider folding and i cold called instead of 3 betting.

The thing is, I'm not even worried about a set at this point. I think the times you are in front are cancelled by the times you are drawing near dead to a set here. The vast majority of the time, you are drawing to 3 8's, a 15-1 shot, in a pot where you can easily get redrawn out on even if you do hit on the turn. You are only getting 8.5-1 immediate odds on your cold call. And to make matters worse, your call doesn't even come close to closing the action.


The underlay you are getting in my mind isn't even in the ballpark to start talking about implied odds. The flop might cost you 4 bets before its all said and done, and the times you hit and lose will cost you a ton. The pot really just isn't big enough to justify calling here.


Just a bad spot for you here bro. You saw the flop (correctly I might add, I agree that I chuck in a chip with 27o here), the action dictated a fold, move on to the next hand with no harm done.

oh yeah youre right, but i would still fold in a 2 chip 4 chip game. (which is all i play so i just assumed wrong.)

brad

Mike,

With top pair, garbage kicker, you “over over cold cold call” a raise in a multi-way pot after the whole field is committed. You have no backdoor draw to any sort of strong hand except a near nut full or freak quads. If you catch your best card, you improve all the way to mediocre against a field. I don’t make this type of call on the flop and don’t think it is close.

The point is that you have several opponents who called a lead bet with a disconnected rainbow flop that has only one draw (QJ). In general, you shouldn’t fear sets too much, but with this many opponents calling a flop bet the chances go way up that someone has flopped set or top two pair. These players generally wait for the turn to raise unless the raise comes from the back as this one did.

Had everyone checked to a late player and he bet you can consider a checkraise. Even leading into the large field is reasonable – you might narrow things down. But the “super-overcall” with this hand is a huge mistake. OTOH, if this was horse racing and they paid place or show money, you might have a call and be a favorite for “show”.

Regards,

Rick

PS - I'm having trouble having my browser maintain my log in so this may go up under anonymous

[Rick Nebiolo]

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[Rick Nebiolo]

Brad,

In a stucture where the small blind is half the big blind, I think it is a relatively easy fold. There are too many opponents and this holding rarely flops well against a field. But if there were only one to perhaps three callers, you can call since you don't need to flop big (or at all) to win.

In a 15/30 structure, you can call with anything, but I still fold the absolute worse hands (e.g., 92 offsuit).

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mike,

You wrote: “when the pot is big tend towards calling”

How it got big matters. The pot is multi-way and only went for one bet pre flop. So pre-flop you have many opponents and a relatively small pot. On the flop, the lead bet was fired off into most of the field. That usually means strength. There were a bunch of callers, a raise and a cold call. That usually means at least two or more opponents are strong. The pot is big because many strong hands are aggressively competing for it. You should get out because you don’t have enough of a hand to battle such a field.

Now if there was a lot of dead money, shooting for two pair starts to make sense. But most of the dead money in this pot is yours.

Regards,

Rick

[skp]

I like the check on the flop to see how the action develops i.e. you might checkraise a late position player, call if there is just one early position bettor with perhaps a caller etc. But given how the action went, you have an extremely easy fold on the flop. I don't think it's close.