Am I a fish or what?

[Justin A]

Here's a hand I played tonight. Assume my opponents are the usual worst players you can imagine that populate Party.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 ($71.15)
CO ($44.50)
<font color="C00000">Button ($49.10)</font>
SB ($42.40)
<font color="C00000">Hero ($67.70)</font>
UTG ($20.20)
UTG+1 ($170.60)
MP1 ($22.80)
MP2 ($83.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to $3</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, Button calls $5.

Flop: ($16.50) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, Button calls $15.

Turn: ($46.50) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

River: ($66.50) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $16.1 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $16.10.

Final Pot: $98.70
<font color="green">Main Pot: $98.70, between Button and Hero.</font>

I'm only interested in the turn and river decisions. Remember stack sizes are very important here.

Thanks,
Justin A

[Trainwreck]

I dont see why stack sizes are important there...

I have to think you are likely against xQ here and beat...
[He did make a small raise PF]

I would not have bet $15 on that flop, maybe stab at it with $5 and give up after that.
I wouldn't burn off $26 more to see his hand...

In limit hold'em I'd call him down, in NL I adjust a lot and fold earlier rather than later...

But, hey that's just my style and he had TENS? or was it the other 2 JACKS! uh oh 99!?!
LOL!

&gt;Trainwreck&lt;

[gytten]

If I was up against good players I'd say KK AA or mayby AQ is possible hands(if I figure him for a tight player), He seems to think he is ahead for sure.

"Assume my opponents are the usual worst players you can imagine that populate Party."

In this case I would figure him for a total bluff or give him credit for catching something silly.. like a boat or something, mayby even A6. Its all about the read you've got on the player. (most ppl att PP is very easy to read)

I'd say he's got a fullhouse/trips(A6) or is simply bluffing his ass off. (happens alot at pp /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

If I was in your seat(with no read) I'd lay it down on the turn. If you bet out strong on the flop and don't have top pair, get called, then raised, I'd give him credit for a good hand. But, you called, ok.. I think the river bet is too small for you to lay it down. Calling on the turn pretty much made you pot commited(due to the fact that he only has 16 left). If I would decided to call the turn, i'd call the river aswell. The 6 doesn't change much.

[Wayfare]

I think your first mistake was preflop. You only raised to $8, which is definately not enough to protect JJ. If you are behind you want to find out about it, and if you are ahead you want to get money in plus set yourself up for a flop takedown of the pot (on most flops).

If you were committed on betting the pot no matter what, you should have made it $10 to go and then bet $20 on the flop no matter what. If he repops you there or preflop, you have a pretty easy fold. He might be getting frisky with AK, but I can't see people calling a $7 reraise preflop with AQ very often. Well, maybe.

BTW I probably would have called preflop and bet the pot on the flop no matter what. That's a cheap way to figure out who has got the goods.

[fimbulwinter]

my take

Preflop:
i don't re-raise JJ out of position here. yeah, it looks like a steal, but you are out of position and there's value of him doing this with like K9 and hitting his nine on a raggy flop, which will let you take a nice pot off him. if you raise, he'll fold or play sheepishly with such a hand, he'll probably re-raise you with a better overpair and he'll call you with coinflip kinds of hands (KQ etc.) where you have terrible reverse implied odds, especially out of position. point is you're building a big pot out of position with a hand you don't want to play a big pot with.

Flop:
bet was a bit hard, i'd bet half that to let him dump a weak PP, or missed overcards. if he raises small, i'll call and check the turn, if he raises big, i'd dump it.

Turn:
be ready to dump your jacks to a solid bet.

River:
given what you did before this, you have to call and pray he has TT or AK or a missed draw of some form.

[Cheap Shot]

Preflop - I would just call to conceal the strength and also let me get away cheap - or I would raise a bit more. 10 dollars - make him pay a little more to see the flop because you are likely ahead here.

Flop - you led out for to much, it looks like you are just betting a pot size, and there are no straight/flush draws you need to worry about on the board. Hes either got you beat with a Q or will pay you off with TT/99 or you are way behind to something bigger like a set or a big pocket pair.

Turn Given the way you played it up to this point - it looks like you are pot commited - so if you plan on calling him all down because you think your jacks are good here I would move in or check raise. They are better then check calling I think. At least with those routes you have SOME folding equity. With check call you possibly extract more out of him with TT or 99 - I mean it is party - But still, you would much rather take this pot down.

River I think when he moves in on the river he can see you want a cheap showdown - not that hes all that smart, but bad players can still sense simple things. And so he value bets whatever he has. His bet indicates he isn't interested in a cheap showdown. He thinks his hand will hold up and he expects you to call.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop:
i don't re-raise JJ out of position here. yeah, it looks like a steal, but you are out of position and there's value of him doing this with like K9 and hitting his nine on a raggy flop, which will let you take a nice pot off him. if you raise, he'll fold or play sheepishly with such a hand, he'll probably re-raise you with a better overpair and he'll call you with coinflip kinds of hands (KQ etc.) where you have terrible reverse implied odds, especially out of position. point is you're building a big pot out of position with a hand you don't want to play a big pot with.


[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop we can quibble over calling or raising more, but the fact is I made a near pot sized reraise against a likely steal with a strong hand. I don't mind playing a big pot with my jacks in a heads up, raised pot. Even though a hand like KQ is a coinflip all in, it favors me a lot when there's money left on the flop. My jacks will be the best hand more often than his overcards will be. Like I said in my original post, I'm concerned about the turn and river.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop:
bet was a bit hard, i'd bet half that to let him dump a weak PP, or missed overcards. if he raises small, i'll call and check the turn, if he raises big, i'd dump it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see your reasoning here, but at this point I do not want to give a cheap card to a hand like AK, AT or KJ. It also tells me a lot when I do get called. When I got called, I decided to give up the hand, but then the turn came...

[ QUOTE ]
Turn:
be ready to dump your jacks to a solid bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was ready to dump my Jacks to a solid bet. Then he bet $10 into a $45 pot. The guys stack was only 26 at the time, so it would have been sensible for him to move in with the last of his money if he did have a hand. I read this as a horseshit post oak bluff, and I thought I could get a cheap showdown by calling here.

So was calling a bad option considering I still thought I had the best hand? I thought that if he had a hand like QJ my call might freeze him up on the river. Should I have just pushed? I can't see a fold here with the pot laying me 5.5:1

[ QUOTE ]
River:
given what you did before this, you have to call and pray he has TT or AK or a missed draw of some form.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I figured. I basically closed my eyes and called because the pot was so big by this point.

Thanks for the responses. Another question: What do you do if the villain has you covered and still makes that weak ass turn bet?

Justin A

Edit: Villain turned over 99. I win.

[fimbulwinter]

hey, i'll be the first to admit you're a much better player than I, so take all my advice with a grain of salt.
yeah, preflop is a nitpicker, but it does change everything about this hand, so i posted my (humble) opinion about how you could have played it that probably would have resulted in a different, less large, but less scary, hand. sorry to get out of line.
the main theme of this hand is player reads. if you're playing against a solid, large stack, a small bet of 10 screams "CALL ME SO I CAN GET YOU POT COMMITTED WITH MY MONSTER"
the guy is obviously a loon trying to weak bluff with a shortstack against someone who obviously has his 99 beat. given that you're a good player, you've probably noticed this at your time at the table, and this is why you made the call. good call, but i wouldn't do it against someone you respect, esp if they're not shortstacked.

always good to hear your input and steal a move or two off a more experienced player /images/graemlins/smile.gif

fim

[Justin A]

fimbulwinter,
Sorry if you got the wrong impression from my post. I appreciate your response very much, and you bring up valid points.

[ QUOTE ]
if you're playing against a solid, large stack, a small bet of 10 screams "CALL ME SO I CAN GET YOU POT COMMITTED WITH MY MONSTER"


[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree here, simply because it's a smaller bet than I made on the flop. If the guy does have a larger stack, that $10 won't get me pot committed.

Since he had a shorter stack, there is a chance that he's just looking for a call, and figures on getting a call on the river also if I call the turn. I hadn't thought of this possibility. If a Party 50 player outplays me like that, I'll just tip my cap.

[ QUOTE ]
hey, i'll be the first to admit you're a much better player than I

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, you must really suck. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Justin A