Theory of Poker: Chapters 8-10 Discussion

[MEbenhoe]

This week I've posted again a separate section for discussing any problems or questions from that chapter. Also, I've posted 4 Quiz Questions at the bottom. Any general discussion can be done under this heading.

[MEbenhoe]

This section is for discussing Chapter 8: The Value of Deception

[MEbenhoe]

This section is for discussing Chapter 9: Win the Big Pots Right Away

[MEbenhoe]

This section is for discussing Chapter 10: The Free Card

[MEbenhoe]

1. You are playing a $5/$10 Limit Hold Em game. You are in the SB with 8c8s. There is one limper from MP and an aggressive player in CO raises. You put him on AK, AQ, or AJ suited or offsuit. You call along with the BB and the MP limper. You make your set on the flop. You know that if you check the BB and MP limper will check too and the LP raiser will bet (and he will bet the turn as well), which will give you the option of going for the check raise right here or calling his flop bet and check raising the turn. Given this scenario, in what cases would you slowplay your set and go for the checkraise on the turn when the bets double and in what case would you checkraise on the flop immediately?

2. Consider this same situation in a NL game with $1/$2 blinds. All four players in this hand have a stack of $100 in front of them to start the hand. The LP raiser raises it to $8 and everyone calls. You make your set on a board of Ks8d6s. The flop is checked around to the LP raiser who bets $16. How would you play this? What if instead the preflop raise was only to $4 and the LP raiser bet $6 on a board of Ks8d2h?

3. You are playing a $5/$10 Limit Hold Em game. You are dealt KcKh UTG+1 and raise. You get one LP caller and the BB calls as well. The flop comes AsKs5h. BB checks, You bet, and are raised by the LP player who you put on a flush draw. The BB calls, and you put them on a pair of Aces. How would you play this hand here and why?

4. You are playing a $5/$10 Limit Hold Em game. You are in the BB with 8s7s. There are two MP limpers and the SB folds. The flop comes Ts9s2s. You bet. If you know that one MP limper has AsJc and the other has KsJd, do you want them to call or fold and why?

[Boylermaker]

I think one of the most important pieces of advice in this chapter is found in the summary (p.68):

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes, though, playing your hand normally may be the best deception of all against very tough players who expect you to be deceptive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this idea can be extrapolated further to include not only players who are 'very tough' but even players who are 'adequate' or worse. How many players do you play against who expect you to play a big flopped hand like a set or straight fast on the flop? How many of them do? In my experience, against most opposition that I have played against, virtually no one puts you on those kind of hands if you bet them strongly on the flop. Not only will you pick up some additional flop bets, you might even get raised on the turn when a blank falls.

[Boylermaker]

The concept in this chapter is 'winning the big pots right away.' I don't remember it being mentioned in the chapter (it may have been, but I don't remember), but what constitutes a 'big pot'? I know this topic is covered to some degree in Miller's book, but in the opinion of posters, what constitutes a 'large pot' to you?

[Boylermaker]

1. Depending on the type of players in the hand, if there is a big card/cards on the flop, I might even consider coming out and betting it myself, if I believe at least one of the limpers might call. There is a good chance, depending on the aggressiveness of the cutoff, that he might raise the flop and get you a few more extra bets.

2. With a pot of $48, and a flush draw on board, I would move in now. I would be more inclined to play slower in the second scenario, as the board is rainbow, so there are less cards that I fear, and a greater chance of someone making a stronger hand (like 2-pair) that might pay me off (due to the lack of flush possibilities).

3. I would raise and continue betting out, irregardless of what fell. The BB will likely call you all the way with his ace. You don't want to risk the LP checking the turn, so if you plan on betting the turn, why not get the extra bet in on the flop as well?

4. I want them to call. Only 6 diamonds left, making them 7-1 to make their flush on the next card. Not enough money in the pot for them to call. And seeing as the pot is so small, I would like to win a bigger one. As well, I can get out if another spade falls.

[Rudbaeck]

1) I check-raise the flop if two-toned or monotone, the turn if rainbow.

2) I raise it to 32. The pot is huge and if anyone want to draw they have to pay. In the lower example I might just call and go for overcalls. But I suck at no limit.

3) I three-bet, a set on a dangerous board shouldn't be slowplayed.

4) I want the MP limper to call and the other to fold. If the J comes on the turn the other limper would have a redraw.

[Boylermaker]

By 'diamonds' I of course meant 'spades'. Plus one of those spades is the J, which makes the straight-flush, so the odds are even longer against -- I definitely want them both to call.

[Rudbaeck]

My reading comprehension rocks the free world. I missed that I made the flush. (I thought I was on a straight draw, err...)

I want them both to call.

[MEbenhoe]

bump, you guys forget to read these chapters?

[BigBluffer]

[ QUOTE ]
1. You are playing a $5/$10 Limit Hold Em game. You are in the SB with 8c8s. There is one limper from MP and an aggressive player in CO raises. You put him on AK, AQ, or AJ suited or offsuit. You call along with the BB and the MP limper. You make your set on the flop. You know that if you check the BB and MP limper will check too and the LP raiser will bet (and he will bet the turn as well), which will give you the option of going for the check raise right here or calling his flop bet and check raising the turn. Given this scenario, in what cases would you slowplay your set and go for the checkraise on the turn when the bets double and in what case would you checkraise on the flop immediately?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the LP raiser bets the flop, there are now 9 small bets in the pot. That's a pretty good-sized pot right now (I believe Miller considers any pot that's raised pre-flop to be a "big" pot). I'd go for the raise right now on the flop. I don't want to give 3 other opponents a chance to draw out on me cheaply (just 1 small bet). Sklansky advises against using deception (such as just calling here and waiting until the turn to check-raise) against many players or when the pot is large. In fact, he emphasizes that it is especially important to play a good hand strongly if the pot is large. I think this situation qualifies for aggressiveness here on both counts. I would not slowplay here.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Consider this same situation in a NL game with $1/$2 blinds. All four players in this hand have a stack of $100 in front of them to start the hand. The LP raiser raises it to $8 and everyone calls. You make your set on a board of Ks8d6s. The flop is checked around to the LP raiser who bets $16. How would you play this? What if instead the preflop raise was only to $4 and the LP raiser bet $6 on a board of Ks8d2h?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play NL, so I'm just guessing here, but the first situation looks similar to the situation in question 1. You've got a pretty good pot and 3 opponents. I sure don't want to let the flush or straight draws in cheaply, so I'm going to make sure they pay to see the turn. The pot is $48 and the bet is $16 to me. I'm going to raise to $48. That makes the pot $96, giving the drawers 2-1 odds to hit their ~4-1 draws on the turn. I just hope the LP raiser doesn't have KK. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

In the second situation, you have a $14 pot and the bet is $6 to me. I'd go along and just call here. The pot's not that big yet and the board is very uncoordinated. About the only thing I'm worried about is the LP raiser having KK. I'll see what the turn brings. It's likely to bring a flush and/or straight draw, in which case I'll probably go for the check-raise then. Depending on the turn card, I might even bet out a little, hope someone raises, then re-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
3. You are playing a $5/$10 Limit Hold Em game. You are dealt KcKh UTG+1 and raise. You get one LP caller and the BB calls as well. The flop comes AsKs5h. BB checks, You bet, and are raised by the LP player who you put on a flush draw. The BB calls, and you put them on a pair of Aces. How would you play this hand here and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I think the overriding factor here is that you've already got a good-sized pot, so you shouldn't slow-play a big hand. You certainly don't want to risk giving the BB and LP a cheap turn card that can beat you. The pot is $60 (12 small bets) with a $5 call to you. I would re-raise to $15.

[ QUOTE ]
4. You are playing a $5/$10 Limit Hold Em game. You are in the BB with 8s7s. There are two MP limpers and the SB folds. The flop comes Ts9s2s. You bet. If you know that one MP limper has AsJc and the other has KsJd, do you want them to call or fold and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm looking at this question with the Fundamental Theorem of Poker in mind. The player with AsJc only has 4 cards that will beat me on the turn: the 3, 4, 5 and Q of spades. 9 cards are known, so 43 are unknown. That gives him 9.75:1 odds to catch. The pot is $23 with a $5 bet to him, giving him 4.6:1 pot odds. Since he doesn't have the correct odds to call I'm hoping he will call. In fact, I'd love to see him raise.

The player with KsJd has the same 4 outs to beat me, but if he catches any of them, we'll both lose to AsJc, so I'm hoping he will call (or raise) too, regardless of what AsJc does.

[BigBluffer]

[ QUOTE ]
The concept in this chapter is 'winning the big pots right away.' I don't remember it being mentioned in the chapter (it may have been, but I don't remember), but what constitutes a 'big pot'? I know this topic is covered to some degree in Miller's book, but in the opinion of posters, what constitutes a 'large pot' to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like Miller's advice that a pot that has been raised pre-flop is considered a "large" pot.

[BigBluffer]

When discussing Getting a Free Card, Sklansky suggests "you can bet out of turn to make your opponent check, which is not quite ethical but legal."

First of all, I'm surprised Sklansky would advocate such angle shooting. Second, I think he's being too cute when he softens things up by saying this is "not quite ethical." This tactic is absolutely unethical. Kinda like saying a numbers runner who steals from his boss is kinda unethical because the activity is illegal in the first place.

Besides, where I play, action out of turn is binding. He would not be allowed to take his bet back unless it was clear he was an absolute newbie. Even then he would only be forgiven once.

I think Sklansky dropped the ball on this one.