Froggy's Daily Hand. #1: AK, weakly played.. Did I get bluffed?

[MrFroggyX]

Hey!

I have some good news and some bad news.
The bad news is that I have come to the conclusion that I suck. The good news is that am going to make an effort to improve! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In order to make this possible I will need your, the NL small stakes forum sharks /images/graemlins/cool.gif, critique and criticism of my play.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

First some background on me than over to the daily hand..
I multi table on Party's NL$100 Tables. My regular schedule is to play atleast 4 days in the week. Monday to Thursday, 5 hour each day. Anything over that and it is a bonus! /images/graemlins/wink.gif Under those 5 hours I play about 2000-2200 hands. (Multitabling 8 tables). And after each session I will choose one hand that I need guidance on. It can be a simple/regular hand or a hard one.. Anything that needs improvement in my game.. Or is interesting!

Anyway, over to the hand!

/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif



The first hand is the dreaded TPTK.. I played this hand very bad in my opinion.
Question 1: How would you have played it?
Question 2: If you had played it like I did.. Would you have called on the river?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Froggy ($116.35)
UTG ($142.35)
UTG+1 ($100)
MP1 ($99)
MP2 ($462.85)
MP3 ($129.25)
CO ($233)
Button ($109.90)
SB ($102.25)

Preflop: Froggy is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $2, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to $6</font>, SB folds, Froggy calls $4, UTG+1 calls $4, MP2 calls $4.

Flop: ($25) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Froggy checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $6</font>, <font color="CC3333">Froggy raises to $20</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Button calls $14.

Turn: ($65) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Froggy checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $20</font>, Froggy calls $20.

River: ($105) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Froggy checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $63.9 (All-In)</font>, Froggy folds.

Final Pot: $168.90
<font color="green">Main Pot: $105, won by Button.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $63.90, returned to Button.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Button doesn't show.
Outcome: Button wins $168.90. </font>

[Justin A]

Hey Froggy,
These hands you post are great, really makes me think!

Preflop I'd do the same.

Flop, I'd sometimes bet out here about $20, sometimes I'd check raise. However, when I check raised it'd be a lot more. The pot is $31 when it comes back to you, so I'd make it about $30 or $35.

Turn I don't even consider checking. A check after a check raise screams for someone to bluff you off of your hand, and I think he succeeded. I either bet about $40 or $50 here, or I just push, considering his stack size. I have a hard time putting the button on a flush here, since he was the preflop raiser and all.

So you come down to the river without knowing where you are. I'd call here and drag the pot when my opponent shows me KQ. You're calling 65 to win 170, I think your hand is good often enough to call.

Justin A

[BobboFitos]

I like how Justin would've played it. But...

Flop, I'd sometimes bet out here about $20, sometimes I'd check raise. However, when I check raised it'd be a lot more. The pot is $31 when it comes back to you, so I'd make it about $30 or $35.

I like checking here. In this instance, if you lead into the raiser, and they raise you, do you meakly fold? Reraising wouldn't be good as they can get away from everything you beat, but if you're tied/beaten, they will crush you. So to reiterate, checking is fine.

I actually like checkraising less than the pot here, too. I dont think he's on a flush draw as well, so you're not charging him for hearts. You're taking the lead with what you think is the better hand, and at the same time, not backing it with your stack.

Turn I don't even consider checking. A check after a check raise screams for someone to bluff you off of your hand, and I think he succeeded. I either bet about $40 or $50 here, or I just push, considering his stack size. I have a hard time putting the button on a flush here, since he was the preflop raiser and all.

The turn is where the mistake was made, IMO. You can not check here. You must bet. Anything. 1/2 the pot, 3/4, whatever.
When you called him on the turn, since you're not exactly going to improve on the river, you MUST call him on the river.

[Bremen]

Hello, if I may ask why didn't you raise preflop? If he reraises you know he most likely has a monster, while a call allows you to be far more comfortable with TPTK. Granted you did get two overcalls, I don't think its worth the uncertainty though :-\

Anyway, since this is my first post, great forums. Learned alot lurking here last few days, hope someone can poke a hole in my play here ;0)

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello, if I may ask why didn't you raise preflop? If he reraises you know he most likely has a monster, while a call allows you to be far more comfortable with TPTK. Granted you did get two overcalls, I don't think its worth the uncertainty though :-\

Anyway, since this is my first post, great forums. Learned alot lurking here last few days, hope someone can poke a hole in my play here ;0)

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not sure why Frogger didn't raise, but here's why I wouldn't, and I'm assuming this is why...
He's in bad position with AK, and raising just serves to building a big pot.
Big pots with AK are all well in good... When you have position. When you dont, it's far too easy to lose the pot, (playing TPTK to alot of aggression is tough; playing overcards to the same aggression is not fun, either!) so by just calling, he helped make the pot size more comfortable, plus it adds alot of deception to his hand.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually like checkraising less than the pot here, too. I dont think he's on a flush draw as well, so you're not charging him for hearts. You're taking the lead with what you think is the better hand, and at the same time, not backing it with your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thinking here. Of course you have to follow up a small check raise with a bet on the turn.

Justin A

[BobboFitos]

I like your thinking here. Of course you have to follow up a small check raise with a bet on the turn.

Of course /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MrFroggyX]

I completely messed this hand up.. I had a plan for the hand but then I changed my plan on the flop.. That is not good. Always go with your plan.

Preflop: I only called because I was out of position.. I hate it and don't want to play a big pot with my AK.

Flop: My plan was to check and then see what happened behind me.. And if someone would bet around the pot I would only call. Then on the Turn I would lead out a 3/4 pot sized bet. And after that I would see what happens.. If someone would raise me I would probably lay it down and on the river I would check. But when Button bet only $6 I thought I would try to take the pot right there. But my first mistake is only betting $20! I was distracted and didn't think so closely.. The only thing in my head at the moment was that I was going to call a $20 bet.. And when no one did bet I thought I should bet it myself. A mistake. I should have bet over $30 at least.

Turn.: And I completely agree with everyone here that I did my biggest mistake here.. By checking. I think I have read in some poker book about that you should not check when a flush or straight comes on forth street. It can be as much scare card for your opponent as it can be for you. And you open up yourself for a bluff if you check. And when he only bet $20 I didn't know what to do..

River: And on the river I didn't really know.. He could have had the flush but it's probably more likely he have QQ, JJ or someother hand that I beat.

So we agree that I did two mistakes on this hand! Thx! Next time in this situation I'm going to be prepared.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

And welcome to the forum Bremen! Always nice with some new people /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chers! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Under those 5 hours I play about 2000-2200 hands. (Multitabling 8 tables).

[/ QUOTE ]

that's pretty intense. i've been working my way up the party 6-max NL tables (i'm doing well so far at the 100, hopefully will try the 200 soon if my results keep up), but i've been playing almost exclusively 1-table.

you don't find playing 8 tables incredibly difficult? it sure seems like it would be to me.

[Pokerho]

If you've come to the conclusion that you suck, don't you think that 8 tables is 7 too many? I guess suck is a relative term. You could suck at 8 tables, and rock at 7. I find that I can't get a read on any player if I'm playing more than one table, even with the help of PT. It's getting the reads on players that allow you to make a call like your hand above on the river. When forced all in, you can either a) have the nuts and call, or b) not have the nuts, and base your call on your read. You simply can't have a read playing 8 tables.

[cornell2005]

preflop: fine

flop: well i raise to 18 but doesnt matter

turn: your screwed. if you are willing to check call 20 dollars, you better bet out 20 dollars. betting is much better than check/calling here. if you are ahead, you miss a value bet when he checks behind. its unlikely that he will bluff here after you raised the flop. plus when your bet is called, its a simple lay down on the river. when you check call, you have conflicting thoughts running through your mind, and will often incorrectly call the river. as it played out, i check/fold the turn. you are vs a flush or 2 pair alot more often than you vs a lower 1 pair. it may seem weak, but it will absolutly save you money in the long run in this game. plus, when you decide to check call the turn you better be comfortable with calling an all in on the river, which you arnt. in order from best worst, i check/fold the turn, bet out turn and check/fold river, then last check/call the turn.

river: as it played out, just fold. youd like to call becuase you check/called the turn, but your beat so just cut your losses. without a read, no way you call here. with a read, you still probably fold.

[zeero3]

I think I found you on Party Froggy! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I only called because I was out of position.. I hate it and don't want to play a big pot with my AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

It will be very difficult not to play a big pot if you hit the flop. If you truly want to avoid a big pot with this hand due to being uncomfortable with the situation, it would be better to fold. You don't build hands in raised pots that you may have to come off. Here, you build a hand you are happy to back for all your chips should you hit your most likely hand.

Calling preflop is ok, just not for the reason you used. If you are not prepared to play for all your chips post flop, and you will be putting in a lot of chips only to be playing guessing games later on, then folding is preferable to calling. As would re-raising I think.

[MrFroggyX]

you don't find playing 8 tables incredibly difficult? it sure seems like it would be to me.

No, I like it. It helps me to play tight and not get tired so quickly.


You simply can't have a read playing 8 tables.

No, I got no reads on people.. Except the regulars and the people I have PT stats on.. It's a trade off.. My BigBlinds/100 hands are much lower than if I would only play one table. But instead my $ per hour is bigger.
And I play poker mostly for the money.

But my goal is to build my bankroll up to $10,000 and start playing bigger games on some other site.. Then is my idea that I will play 4-6 tables on autopilot on party and play one bigger game where I will focus my energy and start to play "real" poker. I’m a few thousands short but it goes steady up.. Until then I will grind it out on Party.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif


in order from best worst, i check/fold the turn, bet out turn and check/fold river, then last check/call the turn.

I agree! Very nice sum up.


I think I found you on Party Froggy!

Opps.. /images/graemlins/blush.gif I hope you don't take my money.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Have you found out both my usernames? /images/graemlins/wink.gif


Calling preflop is ok, just not for the reason you used. If you are not prepared to play for all your chips post flop, and you will be putting in a lot of chips only to be playing guessing games later on, then folding is preferable to calling. As would re-raising I think.


Ok.. Maybe I didn't express myself proper..
My reason not to raise in this hand has all to do with position!! I think that’s the most important thing in NL.
I don't think it's smart to build a very big pot with my lousy position and also when it's already lots off people in the pot.

I think that is a sure way off going broke.. If I would be behind the original raiser I would definitely raise!! You can count on it.. But not when there are several other people and I have to act first on every street. (Except the SB). Then I think it's better to call and see what the flop look like.