Non-Aces hand

[JTG51]

I felt a little confused through this entire hand. I'm interested in your comments on every street.

.50/1 PLO. I have $180 to start the hand, LP has $85. LP is new to the table and unknown to me.

Four players limp and LP makes it $5 to go. I call on the button with Q /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Three of the limpers call.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

It's checked to LP who bets the pot, about $25. I just call. Everyone else folds.

Turn: J /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif

LP goes all in for about $55 and I fold.

[Big Dave D]

Either bet the flop or check raise the flop. Its that simple. Next case :-)

gl

Dave

http://internetpokerpro.blogspot.com/

[nicky g]

He can't do either as the LP acted first. He can raise, but do you think he should raise into the field of the three players who've checked to the preflop raiser with just trips (not the nut or even second nut trips, and only two outs if someone has J10)? I think calling top see how the others act and what the turn brings is OK here. The ace on the turn is trouble because so many PLO raises are made with AA, although having come this far I'm not sure I like the fold to the all-in. Thoughts?

[greywolf]

Tough one, without the straight draw i would fold insantly.
EDIT: i dont think the straight draw is worth much because your "outs" might very well end up giving him a boat.

The two QQ really mess the hand up having you draw to two outs in worst case. The LP raiser represents the nut trips or a full house he could also hold something like AAKQ and seriosly overplay his hand i do not know how likely that is tho. A house on the other hand is more than possible, the cards being of high rank and running close together. Folding to the flop bet is probably the better play here as you will feel very uncomfortable to an allin by LP on the turn unless a Q comes. That would be especially true if the stacks were deeper than in this case. I dont think calling the flop is a good move, I would rather go allin to prevent myself from making a bad turn decision. I am not sure that is a good move tho. Thoughts?


[ QUOTE ]
The ace on the turn is trouble because so many PLO raises are made with AA, although having come this far I'm not sure I like the fold to the all-in. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would nearly always fold to an unknown player if i call the flop and a ace comes on the turn. I havent played .50/1 PLO for a couple of months but i can't see him moving in without being full here, either JJJTT, JJJAA AAAJJ or even the broadway straight what else could he have?. A fold is in order.

[Big Dave D]

Oops, sorry Nicky...zoomed through too fast. I still think on balence the correct play is to raise. You must try and cross a bridge b4 u start to worry about it. Why give the potential overpairs a chance to suck out? Raise just enough to put the bettor allin. Then see what happens.

gl

Dave

[JTG51]

Why give the potential overpairs a chance to suck out?

Should I really be worried about two out hands that are only getting 3-1 on their call?

[sherbert]

Yes and no - point is, if LP bet the flop with his AA overpair, he's not getting 3-1; you calling his bet is essentially giving him a free card once you just call. That's very different from 3-1. If I knew he had just the AA overpair I might be inclined to call but this board is packed with draws - and if he had a gutshot and backdoor flush as well as the AA then a raise here is better than a call. Your're streets ahead of him. If he's got the jack or tens full, you'll know instantly.

[JTG51]

...if LP bet the flop with his AA overpair, he's not getting 3-1; you calling his bet is essentially giving him a free card once you just call. That's very different from 3-1.

I understand that. I was talking about the other players.

If I knew he had just the AA overpair I might be inclined to call but this board is packed with draws - and if he had a gutshot and backdoor flush as well as the AA then a raise here is better than a call.

Doesn't my holding 2 Queens greatly reduce the chance that there's a good straight draw out there?

If he's got the jack or tens full, you'll know instantly.

Sure I'll know instantly, but all of my money will be in the pot so I won't be able to do anything about it.

[sherbert]

I understand that. I was talking about the other players.

Oh, OK. Well in that case you definitely want to knock them out. You want to restrict this hand to just you and the LP.

Doesn't my holding 2 Queens greatly reduce the chance that there's a good straight draw out there?

Yes, it does. But there are plenty of possible draws nonethless - and if someone has KQ you want them out of the pot.

Sure I'll know instantly, but all of my money will be in the pot so I won't be able to do anything about it.

Yes, that would be unfortunate. What you are trying to accomplish is to knock out the draws/overpairs that may feel impelled to call on the basis of the better odds they're getting or whatever. If another player overcalls your call, he'll be getting 3-1. They may be making a mistake but it is opening up the prospect of you being sucked out on. A lot of players find it hard to let go of a good draw even in the face of a scary board. You especially don't want the moron calling with the idiot end of the straight and hitting his 8, for example.

Clearly the downside of your raise is that someone is already well ahead of you. But with one jack in your hand, you are likely best. LP, if he just has the aces, should fold. In other words, you are increasing your variance but also, hopefully, your expectation.

If you just call and the LP pots it again on the turn you can be fairly sure he's ahead. But you can't be certain and if another player has called and pots it you when a scare card comes you will have to give it up. If you'd knocked out the other players at least you eliminate that risk.

Comments?

[CrisBrown]

Hi JTG51,

As always, I'm new to Omaha so don't put any stock in what I suggest....

I think this really depends on your assessment of LP's raising hands, and since he's new to the table, it's hard to know what to do at the flop. But there's another thing to consider: should you have called pre-flop? QQJ9ds is a very solid hand -- a raising hand, in fact -- but you're in the worst possible position: immediately to the left of the pre-flop raiser. So you're kind of monkey-in-the-middle on this hand, and that definitely limits how you could play it.

Let's say you pot-raise this flop, and one of the EP limpers pushes in. Oops. EP was hoping LP would bet, so he could take a big pot with his JT holding. Now maybe LP pushes all-in ... and now what? One of them surely has JT, and you have only two outs, and you're stuck folding with half your stack in the middle. Uggh.

That's why, in a raised, multi-way pot, you want to be immediately to the *right* of the pre-flop raiser. If the table "checks to the raiser," you'll get to see how everyone else reacts before you have to make a decision. So I think if you want to play this hand here, given the raise immediately to your left, you need to reraise pre-flop to try to isolate him ... and regain your position. If you don't like the idea of reraising vs. probable Aces with QQJ9ds, then mucking pre-flop is probably better than calling and being forced to play a drawing hand from out of position.

Cris

[Big Dave D]

Sorry for the delay in following up...too many games and too many hours /images/graemlins/frown.gif Sherbert has mostly made my point for me. In general in PLO you have a dilemma as to how to play non-nut but strong hands (and these include powerful draws.) You can either play them in such a way as to minimise variance or in such a way as to maximise expectation. The problem with the former, is that so many players see calling as a sign of weakness and may then make moves on you. This is fine when you have the nuts, but as in your case it means that you will continually be making tough decisions which frankly can be insoluable. A far better stance, certainly in any game of semi-intelligence upwards, is to play more aggressively, and "cross each bridge as you get to it". In this hand a raise to $75-$80 would be perfect, neither commiting you to the pot but enough to get out any lingering draws. I dont think its close either.

gl

Dave
http://internetpokerpro.blogspot.com/