Common Situation... I always end up playing it weak tight

[SpiderMnkE]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($41.70)
UTG ($40)
MP ($11.40)
Button ($72.40)
Hero ($95.91)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $1.
<font color="CC3333">UTG (poster) raises to $2</font>, MP folds, Button calls $2, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $6, Button folds.

Flop: ($19) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets $32 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $51
<font color="green">Main Pot: $19, won by UTG.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $32, returned to UTG.</font>

[Snoogins47]

Don't you just love being out of position?? ;P

I just posted in another post that this is probably my absolute nightmare as far as uncomfortable poker situations go.

I don't think there's much you can do about it. You're behind, more likely than not. Against a typical opponent, the only hands I could see you being ahead of given the PF action would maybe be KQ or KJ, but I doubt the big bet here on the flop. AK or AQ is quite possible, AJ maybe, a set... KK even.

As for your actions, A small bet will reek of weakness and you'll be pushed off almost invariably, regardless of the opponent's holding. A big bet probably won't push anybody off the hands that beat you, and will only tie you down to the pot. As per usual, I'm no expert here, but I think it's usually best to cut your losses here and move on. Maybe I'm just a wuss, but I don't like to lead at a pot that I feel I'm very likely behind in, and where I don't feel I have much fold equity either. If you DO bet, a raise makes this an easy fold. Say he calls a pot sized bet on the flop... action to you when a blank falls. What's next? The caller most certainly has you beat, and you're tied to the pot pretty well.

I tend to just surrender the pot here. As aggressive as I like to play, I just don't think this is the kind of situation to really mess with.

[Justin A]

Looks like you played it fine. Don't get too worried about hands like these. You got money in as a likely favorite before the flop, and the flop was unkind. Move on to the next hand.

Justin A

[fimbulwinter]

EDIT: i read the hand wrong, read my followup post for a sane answer

i'd fire at it for sure. hopefully the guy had a PP and was trying to flop a set on you. make him prove to you that he's got that ace and he's willing to go to the felt with it. in general people figure preflop raisers for AK, so if HE has KK/QQ/JJ he might make a "monster laydown" here to a pot sized bet. in this hand he had AA or AK probably, so you'd have gotten re-raised all in and would have been able to fold confident that you made the right choice. in this case that line is obviously wrong, however over the long run i'd say it's +EV.

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd fire at it for sure. hopefully the guy had a PP and was trying to flop a set on you. make him prove to you that he's got that ace and he's willing to go to the felt with it. in general people figure preflop raisers for AK, so if HE has KK/QQ/JJ he might make a "monster laydown" here to a pot sized bet. in this hand he had AA or AK probably, so you'd have gotten re-raised all in and would have been able to fold confident that you made the right choice. in this case that line is obviously wrong, however over the long run i'd say it's +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to respectfully disagree here, both on the line, and the read.

I tend to think you're seeing JJ and AJ more here than you are AA. But regardless..

I understand your reasoning for betting at this pot. I just can't see a line to take that includes leading that puts you in a comfortable position at all, because as I said, a smaller bet will almost invariably be raised, regardless of whether or not you're behind, and you basically have to fold at this point. A pot sized bet leaves the player who's IN position here with virtually no money in his stack, and if he pushes, you're going to feel pot committed, and you're almost certainly behind. If he flat calls, you can be almost certain the rest of his stack is getting in on the turn in some way or another, and you're most certainly beat.

With bigger stacks doing battle, leading might not be a bad idea. But I feel in this situation you just have to give it up and move on.

[Cannes]

This being a 6-max, even with bad position I'd throw in a near pot sized bet on the flop here (probably around 12BB) and see what happens.
They fold often enough for it to be +ev.
He calls or raises the decisions for the rest of the hand are easy.

[fimbulwinter]

you are completely right, i didn't see that the opponent was short compared to the hero. if he and the hero are both at ~100, i bet every time here, but i am completely wrong in this situation.
if he's as short as he is, i bet min here (i know it sounds nuts) because the guy can either figure it for weakness or figure it for a monster trap. he only has to fold like once in 20 to make it profitable. even though it's a sissy bet, it will allow you to use the same move in the future against him when you've got the set etc. I'm probably more aggro/crazy than spider, so this is a judgement call, but i'd never check that flop.

sorry for the bad advice, thanks for catching my mistake /images/graemlins/cool.gif


(edit: just edited my previous post)

[pilamsolo]

You played it fine, IMO. On party there's always a chance he has diamonds or Q10 or something (even KJ sometimes), but the majority of the time he's got you beat. They'll be better spots to get your money in.

If his stack was deeper, though, it would be different.

My 2½ cents.

[cornell2005]

no way i fire the at the flop here. villian will very very rarely try to steal bet the flop with cards where he would have folded if you bet the flop. in other words, he wont bluff on the flop here very often at all. he can have so many hands that has an ace in it that its worth it to check and see what he does.

[knucklehead]

I'm new guys, in case you haven't noticed?

Anyway, here's what's been happening to me lately, I'm not getting any playable cards, then I get something half decent and I'm out of position?? Then I expect too much out of the hand, instead of continuing to be patient????? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Reading the posts here is really great!!!

[Wayfare]

What counts as a "playable" hand for you?

[knucklehead]

...99, ...QJs, ...AQ, any pair conditionally!?, suited connectors 89 and below (sometimes out of position, if I'm up), I have problems with A9o thru A6o unless it's short handed, I'll play trash in position??? (sometimes)

[Wayfare]

Any pocket pair is a limping hand in any position at these tables, and you can call a raise less than 10% of your stack. 10% if you close the action or will have position. Don't play A6o, it's just junk. A9o is also pretty much junk unless you are in CO or button.

Suited connectors are usually good but better if you have position / bigger stacks. I limp about 20% of my hands at 6-max and I am considered tight. If you only raise AA-JJ, AK at these tables I think you can make a case for a very solid preflop strategy, especially because the opponents are not observant.

[RoyalSampler]

And I'll jump on that wagon too. My usual action with queens out of position is concede if the ace hits and stab at the pot if the only overcard is a king. Usual PP call is Ax. This seems to be profitable for me.

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
you are completely right, i didn't see that the opponent was short compared to the hero. if he and the hero are both at ~100, i bet every time here, but i am completely wrong in this situation.
if he's as short as he is, i bet min here (i know it sounds nuts) because the guy can either figure it for weakness or figure it for a monster trap. he only has to fold like once in 20 to make it profitable. even though it's a sissy bet, it will allow you to use the same move in the future against him when you've got the set etc. I'm probably more aggro/crazy than spider, so this is a judgement call, but i'd never check that flop.

sorry for the bad advice, thanks for catching my mistake /images/graemlins/cool.gif


(edit: just edited my previous post)

[/ QUOTE ]

what line do you take if the stack sizes are &gt;100BB... and you bet the flop... and they call and blank on turn?

check fold?

what if a K or diamond falls?

bet fold? check fold?

i want to know the proper line vs a low stakes NL player...