AKo on a missed flop

[David BB]

I might have overplayed my hand here. I included my thought process in the hand - do you agree?

MP1 has been cold calling raises with any two suited all night. Table is very loose/passive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls,

Flop: (10.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

<font color="green"> I'm not crazy about the two /images/graemlins/heart.gif's on the board but I do have outs and the pot is large so I'm not gonna give it up yet. </font>

Turn: (7.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Button folds, BB folds.

<font color="green"> No help, but if noone has a queen this is a scare card. Perhaps I can get the pot heads up vs. a flush draw and take it down with ace high on the river. I think its worth one bet to try.</font>

River: (9.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="green"> Did I get lucky? </font>

Final Pot: 11.66 BB

[TheHip41]

Why bet the turn, then check the river when a blank hits? Don't you want to give someone with J-10, or 9-9 or A-5 to fold? I don't understand calling this river with Ace high. I'd bet, since you have been representing a good hand all along.

Derek

[David BB]

I check because those hands arent going to fold. Theres no way I'm going to get called by a worse hand if I bet.

By checking I may have induced a bluff from a busted straight or flush draw - thats why I call.

Playing the river this way is standard when you can only beat a busted draw. Its to only way to get maximum value on ace-high.

[TheHip41]

You don't think A-5 will fold this river? 44, or 66?

[David BB]

If they were going to fold they would have folded a long time ago.

[TheHip41]

This is true. Now you are confusing my thinking /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tree_stump]

I disagree - if you're going to call the bet on the river, bet it out and give the guy a chance to fold bottom pair. You don't lose any more money, and I think you win more this way in the long run.

There's always the chance that he'll call with Ax or his busted flush just to "keep you honest".

[me454555]

You raised pf and got 3 cold callers. Flop comes down with 2 cards in the play zone, a flush draw, and a strait draw. If you are a head, its not by much. You're outs may not all be clean as any K could give someone a strait and the A and K of hearts could give someone a flush. On top of all that, theres a very good chance somoen has either a Q or a J.

I'd probobly check this flop with the intention of raising an LP bettor. You want to eliminate as many people as possible here and the pot is too big to fold anyone for 1 bet, especially after they all called 2 cold pf.

[DonWaade]

Bet or C/R the river. It is simple. If you check, and it is checked behind you, you have a showdown for less money when you are very likely behind. If you check and call a bet you are STILL likely behind and have not given the villain a reason to fold his busted draw/low pair/Ax. If you check, and the villain bets and you raise, he will be forced to a difficult decision. I might be in the minority but I think this is a +EV play. If you Bet you get small pocket pairs or busted draws with to fold.

[Rudbaeck]

I like it. The semi part is gone from this bluff, so a bluff raise on the river might work. You've represented a strong hand all the time, it's heads up in a medium sized pot. There is a real possibility that MP1's bet was a bluff. And if he considers himself 'good' he might lay down a small pair here.

If you absolutely only wanted to risk one bet on the river you should have bet out.

[David BB]

[ QUOTE ]
If you check, and the villain bets and you raise, he will be forced to a difficult decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hes not going to fold a better hand, its that simple. My river play in this hand is the one thing I'm sure is correct.

I suggest you read the chapters on river play in ToP and Middle Limit Holdem /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Noodles]

if someone has been betting all the way then checks the riv to me,i bet a pair or whatever then he rasies i would find the CR very suspect,why would he CR me here,why should he think i would bet into him after calling all the way.
I dont think a CR from the hero here would knock out anyone with a better hand

[Ralph Wiggum]

Bet the river if you're gonna call a bet.

[DMBFan23]

what if you won't call a raise?

[David BB]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river if you're gonna call a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this line of thinking just doesn't work on the river when you only have ace high. Since my opponent is extremely unlikely to fold if he has a pair and I'm not gonna get called by a worse hand (ie. a busted draw) betting here is -EV. I can only check and call what might be a bluff induced by me showing weakness with a check. Many people will bluff with a busted draw in this situation.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
what if you won't call a raise?

[/ QUOTE ] Then, I think bet/fold, a bluff, or check/fold, "Next hand!", are his only options left.

[Nick709]

Well played, I would have played it the same.
Am I the only other one who likes the river check-call?

[Danenania]

I play this the same way. Check-calling seems like the only way to go on the river. If he called the turn with a small pair, he's calling the river, but you might pick up a bet from a missed draw. Most of the time you lose this one to a J, but the pot is big enough to call.

Getting a flop checkraise in on a LP would be nice, but it's hard to judge where a bet will come from and with up to 10 outs in a big pot (plus the chance you have the best hand), you have to start cleaning up outs however you can. I bet out for fear it will be checked through, and with hopes of an EP player raising me.

[DonWaade]

A C/R is rarley percieved as a bluff at low limits. Thus he might fold.

[Jonny Melon]

I like the flop play. Bet and hope a raiser helps you protect your hand (maybe MP3 will semi-bluff raise the flush draw and protect your hand for you-- wouldn't that be ideal?).

I like the river play as well, for the reasons you've detailed in this thread.

I'm on the fence on the turn. I often play hands like this hard, hoping to fold out weaker hands unimproved, and it almost never works online against 4+ players (it does work in weak-tight B&amp;M games, though -- I digress). I am beginning to think that it works infrequently enough to be -EV.

I like a turn check; I look this hand similarly to playing a weak draw (a 5- or 6- outer maybe) against many opponents on the turn, given the likelihood that several of your outs are unclean. With that kind of draw, I check the turn. I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.

Jon

[Danenania]

Since you'd probably call a turn bet with up to 10 outs in a pretty big pot, I like betting for the added chance of taking it right there. You also can't forget the possibility that you still have the best hand, in which case you don't want to give a free card. The Q pairing is actually a decent turn for you since no one raised the flop.