Starting Hand Ranking

[top-spin]

I have been doing some research on the top 100 hands in hold'em preflop.. So far everyone seems to agree on the top rankings (AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AKs) but then the opinions seems to diverge a little.

Any links that might list the starting hands that you guys trust? After the top 40 hands your best odds are to break even. It's more of a curiosity than anything. I've seen JTs ranked anywhere from 15-25, QJs from 10-20, J9s from 25-40.

I just want to get a little better grounded.

Please don't reply with "you should only care about the top 10 hands anyway" let me be a little curious ok? lol

[kenberman]

Hi,
Pick up a copy of Small Stakes HE, by Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth. This should get you started,
Ken

[As Zehn]

Pick up a copy of David Sklansky's Hold Em Poker for an accurate hand ranking list.

[Nottom]

Most hands beyond about the top 10-15 are going to be very game dependant.

In some games AJo is a monster and JTs is crap. In other games JTs might be a profitable hand, while AJo is trash.

I recommend that you really try to understand why each hand is ranked where it is on various charts and that will help you much more than some meaningless list.

[top-spin]

This link seems to represent one of the better list of starting hands.. what do you guys think? you have to scroll to the bottom to see it..

I like the fact that not only is ir ranked but you get a EV out of starting with it.

http://teamfu.freeshell.org/poker_hands.html

i've seen a variation that takes into account what position your in.

I'm just trying to nail down my preflop hand selection when I'm tight, and sometimes u wanna loosen up a little bit, but I dont wanna play anything that's not in the top say 10 or 15% of the starting hands.


So rate this chart from say 1-10? 10 being the best?

Thanks !

[helpmeout]

Starting hand rankings are a waste of time. You play certain hands based on the situation, just because 43s is unprofitable overall doesn't mean that it cant be very profitable at a passive table where you can limp in and if you hit people will call your raise with nothing or very little.

You need to know why some hands are good in certain situations and why others are not.

Compare 2 hands AJo to 87s, you cant say one hand is better than the other.

All you can say is AJo is good vs few opponents because A high might hold up and also high pairs. You cant really make many big hands out of it. You might get lucky with a fullhouse but it is a weak hand for making a flush or a straight and these are the hands that win a lot of multiway pots.

87s isnt very good vs few opponents because it wont hold up if you have nothing and often your 1 pair or 2 pair is beat by higher pairs. Against a lot of opponents it is a great hand because you can make a straight and a flush with it even a straight flush if you are lucky.

That is what you need to know not look at your chart and see AJo is a group 4 hand and 87s is a group 5 hand. You need to know when these hands are playable and why.

[kenberman]

You're missing the point.

You need to understand why 78s from the SB in some games might be EV+, but the same hand from UTG is not. Why speculative hands are sometimes not always profitable. Position, opponents, and various other factors play into this. Go pick up a solid strategy book and read it, then read it again.

This will teach you not only pre-flop strategy, but also some quasi-important things like betting on the other 3 rounds.

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
Most hands beyond about the top 10-15 are going to be very game dependant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God, someone out there understands this concept. There is no "catch all" list of the top starting hands. I see too many members on 2+2 who seem to over look the fact that HPFAP is written for playing in solid/tough games. Therefore, the material within (like starting hands) can not be properly applied to loose/weak games. The book SSH was written to address these issues.

Nottom, thank you. You're the man.

[top-spin]

I'm a beginner, that's why i chose this area.

I'm looking to not repeat the same mistakes a lot of beginners make, paying on cards that won't get them anywhere, choosing crap pre-flop. I believe pre-flop selection is pretty important if you don't have the finesse that comes with experience. I also think it's the best way for a beginner to improve his play.

I'm just trying to play say, the top 15 or so hands or not play at all. Could YOU guys play an K3 and win the pot, yeah probably, but we're not talking about beginners anymore, are we.

I'm aware of concepts like position, pot odds, loose/tight players, # of players in a hand, etc. But im just trying to get off the ground with fundementals here.

Hand ranking becomes a lot less important for you guys, even unimportant. But as a BEGINNER, i'm just curious about a good list of the top say 20/25 hands. It was just interesting that people seem to rank them a little differently.

If you think tight preflop selection is a lousy way for a beginner to start playing the game, i'll respect that opinion if i get unanimous posts supporting it. With a game like this, with so many variables, there's no one way to play a hand.

But really, it should be refreshing a beginner wants to start off with good fudementals. or not, you're probably cleaning them out at the tables...

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just trying to play say, the top 15 or so hands or not play at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna try to not be too harsh...but for the umpteenth time:

You simply can't make a rigid list and play those hands in all situations. There probably aren't 15 hands I play from UTG; but there are when I'm the button.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm aware of concepts like position, pot odds, loose/tight players, # of players in a hand, etc. But im just trying to get off the ground with fundementals here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those things you mentioned are the fundamentals.

[ QUOTE ]
If you think tight preflop selection is a lousy way for a beginner to start playing the game, i'll respect that opinion if i get unanimous posts supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is saying that tight preflop is bad. What everyone is saying that it is much more important to know WHY you are playing the hands you are playing.

[ QUOTE ]
But really, it should be refreshing a beginner wants to start off with good fudementals. or not, you're probably cleaning them out at the tables...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're trying to start out with fundamentals. I think you're trying to start using shortcuts.

I've said this already, and I can't say it any more clearly. Go buy Small Stakes Hold Em by Ed Miller, or possibly Low Limit Hold Em by Lee Jones. Ed very specifically lays out hands you should be playing in certain positions/games. This is a perfect place to learn actual fundamentals. There are no shortcuts.

Good luck.

[Rudbaeck]

There is a good reason it's fuzzy after those hands: It varies based on how the game plays.

Are the opponents tight/loose, passive/aggressive, do some of them switch gears after the flop? The best you can do is to learn how to switch around your starting hands based on all these criteria.

Many authors have an underlying assumption about the game when they rank hands. Sometimes it's stated, sometimes it's implicit. For example Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players assumes it's a tight/aggressive game versus opponents with good skills both pre-flop and post-flop. That calls for some rather different start hand criteria than say Miller's Small Stakes Hold'em. (Which assumes you have plenty of opponents who play too many hands and go too far with them.)

The hands you listed are always the best handful, nothing can change that. But after that it varies ALOT depending on game criteria.

[helpmeout]

I am a beginner also so don't look at my advice as being a bit much for new players.

Firstly you have to be able to group hands and I am not talking about charts. I am talking about high cards, pockets pairs, suited connectors and high suited cards eg A5s K7s.

Everything else is junk Q6o J5s etc. You want suited connectors up to 2 gaps however 0 gap or 1 gap are so much better.

After learning about those types of cards you need to learn when they are playable and the difference between cards like AKs and ATo. Or 55 and 88, QJs and Q9s etc.

I suggest you start working away at probabilities, its really the best way to learn. (Probabilities such as flopping 2 pair, openended straight draws, flush draws etc)Then you will know that you need 5 callers for 1 gap connectors so you also learn how position is important.

You just have to do the work, a lot of beginners and people who have been playing for years don't get past this stage. They want to look at starting hand charts and copy others which is a really bad idea.

[jimcrow2]

Quote (from As Zehn post): "Pick up a copy of David Sklansky's Hold'Em Poker for an accurate hand ranking list."

I have read HEP (as a beginner) and have made a chart of his hand ranking list, which I find very helpful.

Sometimes I wonder if his book is really geared for the low level player (which I am), but after I finish TOP, I plan to read WLLH and will probably find that David's book is right on target, even for a beginner!
<font color="green"> </font> /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[top-spin]

a shortcut and a good place to start are two different things. sure, there's a LOT to being a good poker player but I'll never get off the ground w/out good preflop selection and learning as i go reading, and most importantly, playing and getting experience. A beginner is not going to understand all the subtleties and all the game dymanics.. i think it's a good idea to start w/strong hands and get some table time, that's all. All those other dynamics are MORE important when you DONT have strong starting hands. a weak hand can be the right in certain situations. I just wanna make some good starting choices and stick w/it if the flop helps or get out chasing a draw that almost never comes.

I hear from everyone that there are so many variables dont concentrate on just one. Yeah of course that makes a lot of sence.. but think (if you can) to your EARLY BEGINNING days. what is the first thing that can tell someone who is very very inexperienced.. i believe it's pre-flop selection.

table time and research will bring the other factors and im convinced of it.

thanks for all your suggestions.

[top-spin]

yea i think that the lower ranking hands can be played if a lot of other factors line up right. a good player can recognize them.. the next step! thanks for the post

[top-spin]

your right.. i've seen groupings and how starting hands can change based on your position at the table. more hands become playable on the button rather than under the gun. you cant sense table weakness under the gun if your the first to bet. You JTs looks pretty shabby when you limp in a raise and re-raise back to you. It doesnt look so bad when ur on the button and everyone limps in, right.

reading, table time and getting advice seems to be the best way to become a solid player. thanks for contributing

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

i've seen a variation that takes into account what position your in.

Any hold'em strategy that doesn't take position into account is worthless.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
I have read HEP (as a beginner) and have made a chart of his hand ranking list, which I find very helpful.

Sometimes I wonder if his book is really geared for the low level player (which I am), but after I finish TOP, I plan to read WLLH and will probably find that David's book is right on target, even for a beginner!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can skip WLLH if you have read and basically understood HEP. Go straight to SSH instead. (Or pick up Hilger's Internet Texas Hold'em.) SSH has the extra benefit that it explains the WHY of pre-flop play better and in more depth than basically any other book.

For anyone but the utter novice WLLH is a step in the wrong direction.

[M50Paul]

This was well stated. I am beginner as well and understand what you are talking about but I think you have stated it very well. Good Job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ohgeetee]

using this list is not reccommended, MM went over a list of like 15 reasons why this list is flawed.

[Submarine123]

I've compiled a lot of starting hand info from searching forums and Google. I even scraped together my own version of a chart using everything I could get from my searches, several poker books, and Poker School Online.

After all of that I agree that you can't play "by the numbers" with a chart and no longer use one. At least I don't consult one during play anymore.

I'm a beginner myself so I'd do it the same way all over again to learn the starting hands but my best advice to save time is to go get two books; Small stakes Hold Em, and Internet Texas Hold Em.

Both great books that have starting hand charts as well as detailed play instructions that will serve you well for years, and years to come.

Jay

[Sarge85]

Wow - good stuff - Beginners should read this. kenberman hit it right on the head!!!


To get Zen with it:

Be more concerend Why you are playing a hand - not What hand your playing.

For Example consider -

I'm folding 89s UTG because the game has been really aggresive, and the guy sitting next to me has been raising every other hand and I don't want to play it for two bets.

OR

I'm going to call with 89s in MP3 position. There have been 2 limpers already, and the people that act behind me generally don't raise - and play way to many hands so will probaly also limp along

OR

I'm going to raise 89s on the Button. 6 People have limped in, and I have position. The blinds are passive and I don't fear a re-raise. 89s wins more than it's fair share against 6 people, so this raise has value. I'm a strong enough player that I can get away from a flop that misses me, as well as continue to build a nice pot if I flop a Str8 draw or Flush draw.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[helpmeout]

Thats exactly it Sarge.

ATo in late position against 1 caller I'd raise to steal the blinds. If both the blinds fold then I am risking 2SB to make 5.5SB heads up against the caller and I have an A. If the blinds do call they may only have weak hands.

But ATo in early position or after 2 or 3 callers I am folding because it is more likely someone has a higher A and ATo is also a poor drawing hand, weak straight potential, limited flush potential...