is it just me, or the online MTT's getting WORSE

[whiskeytown]

a yr ago, even during the boom....I used to have a foumula..

take the number of entrants in a NL tourney, divide by 2, and add about 20 - that's the number of players left at the first break.

I'm now finding it more like 20 to 40 LESS then half by the first break.

just an observation...these guys must be watching too much celeb poker.

RB

[joyride]

If you start off playing pretty tight, it's to not make it well into the second hour. So, yes, I agree with you. I think. Yes. Yes, I do.

[fnord_too]

I'd like to see some stats on this. I think I'll start tracking the entrants and number left at each break. I think this info could be pretty useful, but I think it would vary by type of tourney (i.e. Party supers vs. Low Entry Party vs. Rebuys, etc.) If anyone else wants to do the same, maybe we can get a little database going. I'm thinking:

Format (NL, PL, or Lim)
Game
Entry Fee
Site
Entrants
Number Paid
Number left at first, second, third, fourth break (more if needed, but I think it should be pretty deep after 5 hours for almost all on line tournies).

[fnord_too]

Oh and rebuy or not. (I play a lot of rebuys...)

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
If you start off playing pretty tight, it's to not make it well into the second hour. So, yes, I agree with you. I think. Yes. Yes, I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play tight in the first hour, you are making a big mistake considering how fishy the play is. It's generally easy to get all-in with the best of it during the first hour, and you should be happy to take those opportunities. If you get unlucky and bust, there's another MTT starting in a few minutes.

I know we all feel we're better than the average player, but it's a fallacy to play tight for that reason. You need to win a certain amount of chips to win a tournament, and the bad players are the easiest ones to get chips from. If a whole bunch of bad players enter every tournament, but you wait until they all bust out to start taking chances with your stack, how exactly did the presence of bad players work to your advantage?

This is a very important point and I hope no one trivializes it by bringing up hypotheticals about a 51-49 edge on the first hand. Against bad players, you can and should get all-in with much bigger edges than that. You should not be afraid to, even if it means a bad player gets the chance to bust you out.

[ismisus]

I think its due to players being more aggressive.

[woodguy]

I see the same thing.

The PLAY is getting WORSE.
But I think that means the MTT are getting BETTER, due to more dead money.

regards,
woodguy

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
If you play tight in the first hour, you are making a big mistake considering how fishy the play is

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and no. Depends on your definition of "tight" which many may misconstrue. What you CAN'T do in the early rounds is play loose! This is what all those "bad" players are doing. They are playing low cards and suiteds and connectors etc. in bad position hoping to catch. All the while pissing away those precious chips that the tighty saves for the big hand. You raise with your AA or KK and loosey goosey comes over the top with ATo.

I think you have to play real tight early on. Especially at Party with the 1000 chip start because it's easy to get short with one fumble. That way when you do get your "double up" hand you have the ammo to double up with.

You have to be aggressive and get them in when you can. I believe this differs from tightness or looseness. The loose guys will end up nowhere.

[Vuron00]

I don't really agree with this at all. Loosening up against the fish is just asking for trouble.

I don't mind if the fish double or triple up early in the tourney because it just means more chips to take from them when you actually can start playing aggressive.

The last 2 final tables that I made in larger tournaments the last month (350 and 950 players), I had less than half the average stack at the first break from playing extremely tight. Both were on PS and started with 1500 chips. I had 1100 and 1300 at the break with the average around 3000. At the second break, I was the chip leader in one and 3rd in the other with around 11,500 chips.

I feel that its much easier to let the fish destroy each other early and then take their chips when the blinds get higher and you are able to outplay them.

This is one of the reasons (besided dramatic effect) that Phil Hellmuth rolls in late to almost every tournament that he plays.

"If you get unlucky and bust, there's another MTT starting in a few minutes". I can't imagine thinking like this.

[fnurt]

I don't understand how you are unable to outplay the fish with deep stacks, but have no problem outplaying them later when the blinds get big.

[davidross]

I agree, unfortunately they don't seem to be finishing any quicker. THe survivors have more chips and it takes longer towards the end.

[Vuron00]

Its not a matter of not being able to outplay them early, its just the risk that you take playing against 3 or 4 a hand. As the original poster stated, half the field is gone at the break. Many of the players left are fish that doubled and tripled up early and hung around. I feel that around the first break, it becomes much easier to play aggressive against 1 or 2 other players and either double up on a big hand or slowly increase your stack.

I think my statement was a little misleading about the big blinds. Even after the first break on PS, I still normally have > 10BB (usually around 13-14).

Don't forget that even if you only have 1500 at the break, doubling up twice takes you to 6000, which is going to be twice the average at point.

Another thing that I've noticed is that most fish have no idea at all how to play with bigger stacks and are much more likely to go all-in with you if they have you covered.

[joyride]

When I say "tight", I'm not saying that I won't push it in if I have considerable edge. If I get sucked out on, so be it. I won't, however, throw my chips around all willnilly in these stages when I'm unsure of where I stand. Makes sense, right? Maybe playing "smart" would fit here better. What's my point? I have no idea. Oh yes, I remember. There's a difference between tight/smart and tight/scared. I hope I play more like the previous than the latter.

I'd like to think that I'm better than average, but honestly, I just don't have the tournament success to back that up. Or for that matter, that success that many of the players in this forum do. For me, though, playing loose early on can lead to disaster in these MTT's.

[Airpoaneman]

Hahaha, I LOVE Multi Table Tournaments!!!

When I started playing them, say 30/3 buy ins. I first looked at first place, then 2nd, then 3rd-10th. Then i saw how many people were in the tournament..."[censored] thats a lot of people." BAM!!! Didnt make it through first break because i was intimidated. Didnt play another for a month or so.
Played non stop SNG's.

Since then I have only lost before the first 1 hour mark 2 times. But also 5th place was the highest I have ever gotten.

Early on when the amateurs are crazy, they arent crazy with good hands, they are crazy with ANYTHING. They call any 50 chip bet, any 70 chip raise, yes all in with A10os, QJsuited, etc.

I dont think you have to deal with crap hands early on when you can simply pick premium hands and play them. Say raise with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQs. But just call with PP. As much as I like to call Ax suited I know a lot of the time another Ax or even another player makes 2 pair when i have my Aces Jack kicker.

Last night I started a nl 100/9 tournament while finishing up my homework. I played one hand within the first break. And I won 5 hands over all, two of which were to steel the blinds.

(Then at 70 players left, pay out was 60, my nightmare happened, Campus network failed and I had to call my little 12 year old brother across the whole country to play for me over the phone..but thats another story)

Like the previous posters said, play tight/smart. Only play the best hands because when you hit yours, some one will call, if not short stack, its the guy who thinks you are bluffing, or chip leader who wants to push you out. You will double up...dont play anyting but the best early on.

Because thats the easy part. The hard part is staying alive when you have Zero chips.

In the average Quarter Million Sunday Special: Say 1320 people, 52,840 to the winner, and the normal buy-in.
You have to win one 1:245 to stay even. The rest of the time that you make the money is just added to that. If you can stay alive past the first or 2nd break your chances of getting deeper and deeper into the money grow increasingly.

Dont waist your time in the beggining, its not worth it.

[77rules]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes and no. Depends on your definition of "tight" which many may misconstrue. What you CAN'T do in the early rounds is play loose! This is what all those "bad" players are doing. They are playing low cards and suiteds and connectors etc. in bad position hoping to catch. All the while pissing away those precious chips that the tighty saves for the big hand. You raise with your AA or KK and loosey goosey comes over the top with ATo.

I think you have to play real tight early on.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a newbie and a bad one at that, but from what I've read, when you play a loose table you too should loosen up - just not as much as the rest of the table. I mean, the whole point of playing premium hands is that you want to be the one dominating instead of being dominated. Now if you watch a guy raising with JTo and Qx, and you look down to see ATs or KQ ... why shouldn't you play that hand? (On average, never mind the stack size et c).

[Cleveland Guy]

I agree.

About a week ago - I got booted from a MTT at pokeroom. I couldn't log back in for whatever reason. The good news is it became a freeroll for me. I was able to call and get credit for the tourney, so it didn't hurt me (thanks pokerroom).

I was able to log on about an hour fifteen into the tournament, not realizing I was still in it. I had 600 chips with blinds of 100/200. I was UTG with ax - moved all in (figured what the hey). and lost. I was told I finished 83rd out of 224. Not bad for folding the whole time huh?


Last night I was playing one with almost 300 people. Got my aces cracked to a river flush right before the first break and was told I finished 118th. I'd say people are playing a lot more aggressive.

[fnurt]

When the table is loose, your main focus should be hands like suited connectors, things that can flop a big hand or draw. Hands like AT are still dangerous (I'm not saying never play them, but be smart about it), because when that weak player raises you on the A-high flop, he's just as likely to have AJ or A9 and you won't really know. You will still do ok overall, because bad players will pay you off with those weak-ace hands, but you'd rather just avoid those situations altogether.

[whiskeytown]

I disagree 100% with that statement....and I have the results to prove it's wrong.

RB

[whiskeytown]

I dunno fnurt....

I like tighter the earlier rounds. I'll still play a good hand, but I don't like mixing it up with Q10 suited in EP in the 2nd round.

blind steals are worthless, and maniacs are everywhere....let them feed on each other, then I start playing back when blinds become profitable.

or else I end up with 10 times the BB and I start that all in trick that seems to serve me so well /images/graemlins/grin.gif

the fact of the matter is this. (going to your 51-49 example) - Every tourney has 50/50 hands. AK vs 10/10 or whatever. I believe it is my best interest to be in as FEW of these as possible, esp. for all my chips...and when I do, it's in later levels when there's a big benefit for it.

I'll still go all in with AA the first hand (and have done so and won vs JJ... /images/graemlins/grin.gif) - but the marginal hands...why not wait till there's something to be gained and the guys who play the worst hands get knocked out....

besides, I like to bluff in a tourney, and it's much harder to bluff an idiot the first round then a pro in the later rounds.

RB

[fnurt]

I just don't get why everyone wants to avoid the people who play bad cards!

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't get why everyone wants to avoid the people who play bad cards!

[/ QUOTE ]

Even fish get Aces. I wanna get in when I'm pretty sure I have the best of it. Playing loose with maniacal fish may not be the best way to get that done. So early I will wait for good cards and position and desirable situations.

[fnurt]

Every player you go up against may have Aces. When you are in a hand with a good player, he is mathematically more likely to have Aces than when you are in a hand with a bad player, because the good player plays fewer hands.

In any MTT field, there are a lot of really bad players. They give up huge chunks of EV with every mistake they make, and they make a lot of them. You should want to be involved in hands with them, so that YOU pick up that lost EV, and not someone else.

Of course I'm not saying that you should play 32o or ignore the importance of position. Hand selection and position are part of what makes you better than these fish, after all. But the attitude of letting the fish bust each other out while waiting for a monster is completely wrong. You should want to play against bad players, not good ones!

This thread is very disappointing.

[BobboFitos]

I actually play many, many, many more hands early in low buy in tournaments than I should. 97o in early? Great! I'll limp. 34s? It's sooooted! Since the preflop action is typically very very passive, we can get to the flop for a very small % of stacks. (20 of 1500 is like 1.3%?) Anyways, the best thing about alot of these players early on is not only are they loose preflop, too, but they have incredible calling standards on any flop. I do not bluff with missed hands; if a flop misses me it's easy to give up.
My biggest pots early on have been when I play something like 89 and flop the nuts, and triple up because one guy had MPTP and another has a straight draw and low pair... (Those types of plays)

When the blinds move up, and people tighten up, I am not in there gambling with such longshot/speculative/trash hands, I am playing top hands, but in the beginning with such a low risk, I really dont understand why people here aren't in there tossing chips around, too.

I'll say it once more because it bears repeating: We hate when they call down our bluffs with high cards when they have bottom pair, but when you have the nut straight, or some crazy two pair hand, they will do the same. Make their mistakes work for you.

Of course, some times my tournaments end rather quickly, (as the PS 3$ I was in just did, because... Egad... I was trying to bluff the wrong man!) but building chips early has been key for me.

I dont have the same tournament success as Sossman/DavidRoss/alot of accomplished 2+2er posters, but I HAVE won low buy in tournaments on Stars, (ok, not tournaments, I've won one and been at the final table on several ;x ) but my strat works for me. It's crazy to tighten play early on when I feel I have a huge advantage in post flop play.

[BobboFitos]

I want to attach one little blanket statement to my earlier post:

I'm not saying I go from 15% VPIP or whatnot to 85% or some crazy number like that. It's more along the lines of >40%. (Which is quite loose) Throw away all the face/rags, 3+gappers, etc... Just EVERY fringe hand becomes playable. For me.

[AceKQJT]

I tend to mostly agree with FNurt. I think what has me confused is that no one has differentiated between "loose" pre-flop, & "loose" post-flop. A huge difference IMO. I still play my very tight/aggressive post-flop game, but I am much looser pre-flop. Whether to push small edges is moot at this point, because you absolutely cannot put these guys on a hand, so you have no idea what kind of edge you have unless you actually flop a solid hand.

Oh well...tired of yakking.

--Casey