Surrender or fight back?....

[chesspain]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Opponent is fairly loose preflop; I didn't have enough playing time with him to get a good read on his post-flop play.

Preflop: chesspain is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>,

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, SB calls. <font color="blue">In this small pot, with two overcards that loose-passives love to play, should I just have let it go here, or is the raise correct in an attempt to get him to lay down a K?</font>

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, SB calls. <font color="blue">With my now having picked up a nut-flush redraw, is it O.K. to fire again here, and try once more to pry him off of a possible king? Or does the presence of the second ace (and third flush card) along with my redraw mean I should take the free card and avoid a possible checkraise?</font>

River: (6.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, chesspain checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 6.50 BB, between chesspain and SB.</font>

[All-In]

Your play looks fine. You might very well have the best hand on the flop, especially if he's a loose player. From his action on the turn, doesn't seem likely he has an A. If you get check-raised on the turn I would be inclined to fold. If you check the turn he will probably bet into you on the river.

[Fnord]

After the flop decision the hand plays itself...

Curious if anyone who's not known to be weak/tight dumps it right on the flop...

[dmk]

I play it the same way. Unfortunately, I often ask myself "self, why didn't you just fold to 2 overs, it was just a 3BB pot". Self doesn't listen though, and self continues to play it like this too often.

[J.R.]

I don't see much reason to bet the turn as: you have to call a raise with the flush and 2 queens being possible outs; you aren't really susceptible to a free card (a gut shot or 2 outer are the only concerns, and they are unlikly candidates to have bet into you on this flop); I have a hard time imagining what hand you are ahead of that would bet into you, the pfr, on this flop now that the flush card came (2-4 players tend to stay in line); and I don't see a K folding.

If a K will fold the turn bet is bettor but I don't suspect a K that was willing to bet into you on the flop and call a flop raise will fold to a turn bet, and I don't often think you will be up against a K based on the flop bet. People in the 2-4 tend to call down and not get too out of line, so the odds you are ahead or will fold a better hand on the turn don't look so rosy. You are basically hoping he was bluffing or that you suck out, so encourage a bluff by checking the turn and don't put yourself in a spot where you may have to pay 2 big bets to suck out.

In this small pot, with two overcards that loose-passives love to play, should I just have let it go here, or is the raise correct in an attempt to get him to lay down a K?

I would fold this to a lot of players (most) in the 2-4 game.

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
I play it the same way. Unfortunately, I often ask myself "self, why didn't you just fold to 2 overs, it was just a 3BB pot". Self doesn't listen though, and self continues to play it like this too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. This play ignores pot size. I do think however that your opponent's play is so horrible, it's going to make it difficult to know when you are a favorite or should be fearing a check/raise. It's fine, imho.

[StellarWind]

On the flop you are either way ahead or buried. Assuming that blanks come on the big streets I think you should choose from the following plans:

1. Fold - Showing down your hand risks 2.5 BB to win about 5 BB. Maybe it's not worth it. But I like the backdoors so I would tend to play on.

2. Call, call, call - Keep him betting his pocket pair and minimize your own loss when he has an ace or a king.

3. Call, raise the turn, and take the free showdown - This is the best way to bluff him off a better hand and the threat of AA/KK/AK should deter a reraise. But I would only consider this against a suitable victim. Look at the hand from his perspective and you see that Ax and Kx are pretty close to being the same hand. The only common "middle" hands for you are KQ and KJs. So I don't expect him to fold a king very often. If you do get 3-bet I think you need to call. Unless he has 22 he is most unlikely to have a legitimate 3-bet. A better hand than yours, perhaps, but not a legitimate 3-bet that can beat AK/AQ. Once you realize his normal hands essentially boil down to AT and 88, it becomes clear that you need a showdown.

Mostly I would adopt plan #2.

[chio]

pot is too small, just fold the flop

if you choose to play on, just call the flop, i don't think anyone is folding a K here, especially a loose player like you describe, and if he is completely bluffing you don't want him to fold

2 overcards to your pair, opponents love to bet into preflop raisers on a board like this with a weak A or any K to see what they do

given the way you played it, check behind on the turn, you have nut flush draw, may induce a bluff, and hate to get raised here

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

2. Call, call, call - Keep him betting his pocket pair and minimize your own loss when he has an ace or a king.

Mostly I would adopt plan #2.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stellar, do you really think this is worth it when most of the time he will have an Ace or King here? For it to be profitable to call down, he's going to have to be betting a pocket pair here a bit more than a third of the time and I really don't think that the typical Party 2/4 opponent will be doing this.

I'm really into raising the flop and checking behind on the turn a la J.R. because this way you see a free river and you either bet (for value I like to think) on the river or call a possible bluff (hopefully it's a bluff enough of the time). But, I think I probably should fold a lot of the time on the flop in situations like this.

[chesspain]

Opponent showed K /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and MHING

[Evan]

The pot is still small. I think you should fold on the flop while you can still get away from your hand. That being said, I usually find myself playing it the way that you did.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Stellar, do you really think this is worth it when most of the time he will have an Ace or King here?

[/ QUOTE ]
I said folding the flop was a valid idea and I meant it. It looks close to me.

[ QUOTE ]
For it to be profitable to call down, he's going to have to be betting a pocket pair here a bit more than a third of the time

[/ QUOTE ]
He also could be betting a flush draw.

You are ignoring the possibility that you might improve. You will make a set, flush, or Broadway about 1/7 of the time.

There is a psychological consideration at work here. In general I don't believe "advertising" should have anything to do with LL online play. This situation is an exception. Folding heads-up after raising preflop is likely to be noticed even by players who "don't notice things". It encourages people to play aggressively and try to push me off hands. For most of my opponents, that would be a big improvement in the way they play and cost me money.

The point is not that you should waste money on foolish call-downs, because you definitely shouldn't. But if you think playing this hand is about neutral EV-wise, then you should play it for the sake of keeping up appearances.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is still small. I think you should fold on the flop while you can still get away from your hand. That being said, I usually find myself playing it the way that you did.

[/ QUOTE ]


Me too.
A fold looks best to me....but I find myself trying to force him to lay-down his crappy K far too often (with little success)

[MAxx]

I am not really doing much more than echoing a few responses. I would give strong consideration to folding to flop bet, and sometimes I would- probably not as often as I should... the backdoor would keep me in on this one. If I didn't fold on flop, I would raise flop to try for free card or cheaper show down. I would not bet that turn, b/c I would definitly not want to have to call a raise. I would want to try and make my flush cheaply. If my flush doesn't come through on river, fine. I will call the one river bet, b/c I have encouraged a bluff.