SNG bubble strategy (slight vent)

[CountDuckula]

I was in a cheap SNG on Absolute last night, 4 players left. I'm in the BB with about T2000, UTG is short stack with about T800 or so (blinds are T200). Button is tallest stack, with maybe T7000.

UTG pushes all-in, Button calls, SB folds, I call with J4o (slight gamble, but I'm looking for the opportunity to knock out the short stack and guarantee making the money).

Flop comes out J72 rainbow. I check, Button bets T500. I think for a bit, figure he's either got J with a better kicker, or has flopped a set. I fold, assuming he has it covered. He turns up A6o, all-in has 54s (hearts, I think). Turn is another J, river a blank, and Button wins the pot with the Js on the board and his A for a kicker.

I didn't say anything, but wanted to scream at him, "You bluffed me off the pot with an all-in on the bubble?!??!". I mean, he can freakin' see that if the all-in has any semblance of a hand (and he did push, after all), he's a big dog!

Am I right in thinking that way? My plan was to play ball with the button and check it down (though if I was around for the 2nd J on the board, I might have gotten frisky then), in hopes that one of us could eliminate the bubble and let us get on with settling who gets which prize. As I see it, he gave the all-in a great chance to triple up, and risked the possibility that he could then mount a comeback and knock one of the rest of us out (though as top stack, he probably figured he was safe). I would've been really pissed if the all-in had caught one of his hole cards and taken the pot from Mr. A6o, where my hand would have beaten him. Sigh.... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Not that much money involved, of course, so maybe he wasn't worried about strategy. Anyway, I eventually ended up 3rd, going out when I pushed with JJ, and the top stack called me with a Qx, and caught a Q on the board. All's well that ends well, I guess, but I was rather annoyed with the top stack's play at the bubble.

Thanks,
Mike

[Lori]

If I've read this right, you could have called.

If the button is beating you, he's probably beating the all-in too, so you will finish third by virtue of having more chips at start of hand.

I understand your frustration, just giving you that play for future reference.

Lori

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
If I've read this right, you could have called.

If the button is beating you, he's probably beating the all-in too, so you will finish third by virtue of having more chips at start of hand.

I understand your frustration, just giving you that play for future reference.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks; I guess I should have called, and then pushed on the turn. I looked at a bet worth a third of my stack, more or less, and decided that with J4o, I should run away and live to fight another day (I still had my eye on 1st, and wanted to conserve my ammunition). IOW, I wimped out. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I'm curious, though; what do you think of the button's play? Was it reasonable for him to knock me off the pot, or would he have been better off playing ball with me? I suppose he might have been hoping to put me all-in and have a shot at taking both of us out at once.

Thanks,
Mike

[LinusKS]

I think you're wrong (for thinking that way).

In general, IMO, it's in the big stack's interest to keep the small stack in on the bubble - because - as your story shows - the second and third stacks will often fold winning hands rather than risk going out out of the money.

[prairieboy]

If I were the button in this case, I'd be much more concerned with padding my chip lead than thinning the field, so I think continuing to bet the hand is reasonable.

If he bets this flop, he can assume that you're going to fold most hands and only call/raise with a really solid holding. Given that, for his $500, he can eliminate half his opponents in this $2500 pot and hope that his bare ace holds up against the all-in.

If you call, he can check/fold the turn/river and let you eliminate the all-in for him. Seems like a pretty smart play to me.

[Lori]

His play was something that makes me vent too.

Edit: I think it can be reasonable with some lesser hands as he MAY be in front of the all-in anyway, but not A6.

Lori

[Nick B.]

I would have bet the flop, or c/r all in (most likely not, because I would assume my opponent wouldn't bet). Top pair in a 4 handed game is huge.

[tubbyspencer]

Top Pair No Kicker is almost definitely good here against at least one of the 2 others in the pot. And since the big stack is probably just being a bully, there's a good chance you're ahead of both.

I think a push is warranted on this flop; if the big stack beats both of you, you're still ITM. If you win(and it's likely you're ahead) you have a better stack to attack with. And the bully knows he can't completely push you around.

But I don't see how you can say the bully played this wrong. He forced out the best hand. That's what's fun about having the most chips. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Lori]

He forced out the best hand. That's what's fun about having the most chips.

Why would you want to win a $0 pot?

Lori

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
He forced out the best hand. That's what's fun about having the most chips.

Why would you want to win a $0 pot?

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

To maintain a bubble situation where you can steal with abandon? That seems to be the only reason I can think of.

[Eder]

If I'm the big stack I dont mind to keep the bubble in play...I do get pissed if I'm in your position though haha

[KJ o]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to win a $0 pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't a $0 pot. It was a T2400 pot. If you can push the best hand out and still beat the small stack, it's obviously good. But if you can choose between giving the pot to the bubble or to the 3rd place, giving it to the bubble isn't a bad choice either.

This may very well be a +EV play, I believe.

[tubbyspencer]

[ QUOTE ]
He forced out the best hand. That's what's fun about having the most chips.

Why would you want to win a $0 pot?

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstand. I want to win the T2400 when I don't have the best hand(probably when my Ace high is good too). And - I might spike my overcard, anyway. But in this situation, it worked out for me(since I'm speaking as the bully), because I've now got a good chance at that T2400 whereas before my raise I was behind.

[CountDuckula]

I see my mistake now. I was assuming that the top stack had the same interest in getting rid of the bubble as I did - not so! I think I need to adjust my own ideas about how to approach the bubble when I'm the top stack. I usually try to use others in the pot to help me get rid of him, and don't push them off; I think those who suggested that bullying the short stacks is +EV make a very good point. I personally don't care who gets knocked out first (unless it's me, obviously!), but keeping short stacks around to steal their blinds is a nice option.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Dominic]

I'm not sure why no one has told you should've folded pre-flop. The shortstack is is all-in against the bigstack and you call with J4?? Then you get the flop you want and you fold!

What was the point of calling preflop if you weren't going to play that flop?

[tubbyspencer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why no one has told you should've folded pre-flop. The shortstack is is all-in against the bigstack and you call with J4?? Then you get the flop you want and you fold!

What was the point of calling preflop if you weren't going to play that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely a valid point. This is probably best folded PF.

And it is even more a fold if you are going to fold Top Pair on the flop. What more can you ask from J4o than top pair crappy kicker?

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why no one has told you should've folded pre-flop. The shortstack is is all-in against the bigstack and you call with J4?? Then you get the flop you want and you fold!

What was the point of calling preflop if you weren't going to play that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. Well, yes, I should have. But when the button merely called the shortstack, I thought he was basically inviting anyone who thought they could to help him knock out the bubble. I figured if he didn't want company, he'd have raised. So, it goes back to my original error of thinking that the button and I had the same idea about the bubble. My attitude towards that situation has been that I want more people in the pot to increase the chances of knocking out the bubble. J4o is a crappy hand, but that late in the game, with the bubble likely feeling desperate about the blinds coming to eat his stack, I decided that it was worth a potshot with a high card/bad kicker. If I'd pegged the button's approach correctly in the first place, I'd have stayed out of it from the start; as it was, I was expecting him to play patty-cake with me so that one of us might knock the other guy out. Then when he raised, I thought he was telling me, "Go away, I can take him all by myself".

An example of the thinking of one who still has much to learn, I'm afraid. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Thanks,
Mike

[lastchance]

More importantly, even if you call, you can't let someone on the shortstack get money in with the best of it, which is why you don't make loose calls, even if you can afford it.

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
More importantly, even if you call, you can't let someone on the shortstack get money in with the best of it, which is why you don't make loose calls, even if you can afford it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the reality is, neither of us really should have called that all-in, right?

Thanks,
Mike

[DemonDeac Holding Rockets]

[ QUOTE ]
If I've read this right, you could have called.

If the button is beating you, he's probably beating the all-in too, so you will finish third by virtue of having more chips at start of hand.

I understand your frustration, just giving you that play for future reference.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. top pair 4 handed. pretty strong even with the weak kicker. and teh big stack can call with anything with all his chips.

[LinusKS]

[ QUOTE ]
I see my mistake now. I was assuming that the top stack had the same interest in getting rid of the bubble as I did - not so! Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, exactly. And btw, while I think 600 is a little too much to pay, I think calling in this situation can be good. In the first place, sometimes big stacks do play ball. In the second, you very much want the short stack out. While it may not be in the big stack's interest to see him go, it is very much in yours.

[sethypooh21]

Let me chime in by saying that if you are going to call the all in here. (not the WORST play ever, but I probably fold absolute crap like you had pf, once the big stack calls, you put yourself in an ugly spot. If he just beats the big stack, you are now evenish, which sucks for you, but certainly be better then you having 1100 left after your blind to his 2400.) Once you do call, you either need to check it down or get all your chips in vs. the Button with top pair. Check raising is a fine option, but so is leading out as he probably folds and you are all in for a T2400 pot with top pair vs. RandomHand.

As far as the Button's play, given the relative chip position, it's an easy play to make if you show no strength. His Ace may be good, and he doesn't really care who has the chips between you and UTG (neither be that much of a threat at present), if he doesn't win. But he would sure like them, so he'll take a stab as that is the play that maximizes his chances of winning the pot. If he had something like T4000, this would be a pretty horrid play on his part (both the smooth call, and the bluff bet), but with a huge lead, I like his play. He can still lay down if you play back at him, and he might get you (as he did) to fold the best hand.

[curtains]

He has ace high, there is a reasonable chance its good. There is a lot of money in the pot, if there is even a 25% chance he will win against the lone allin player, its probably in his interest to knock out the other guy from the pot.
He really doesn't care at all about knocking out the other player with his chip situation. What he cares about is maximizing his chances to win the pot...and making a tiny bet did this.

[SmileyEH]

The big stack played it correctly and you played incorrectly. Go all in on the flop - if the bigstack beats you he almost certainly will also beat the shortstack. If the shortstack wins the mainpot and you end up losing the sidepot and finishing on the bubble, well thats poker.

You must be willing to die(bubble out a lot) in order to live (win the tourney).

-SmileyEH

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
More importantly, even if you call, you can't let someone on the shortstack get money in with the best of it, which is why you don't make loose calls, even if you can afford it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the reality is, neither of us really should have called that all-in, right?

Thanks,
Mike

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, he had Ace high, and remember, UTG has just 4x BB. He's got to be pushing with any ace, any pair. I'd push with any king, faces, suited queens, etc. So, I like big stack's call because UTG is getting desperate. I don't like your call cuz J4 is total trash, even up against UTG, who would fold J4. Third of your stack, I'd just get out of the way and hope UTG busts.

Just my opinion, you could definitely play it a different way. But once the flop hits you with top pair, yeah, you know what? Push for the win.