Fold or Reraise?

I'm in the Pink Hold'em game, everyone folds to me in the cutoff, I raise with AsKs, BB calls....


flop Qs 4s 6h


BB checks I bet, he calls,


Turn 9d He checks, i Bet he raises....


Reraise or Call?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why you'd consider reraising him. Clearly, I don't have a good enough imagination.

he's got at least two pair so you want to just call and then fold if you dont make your flush on the river.

That's what I was thinking at the turn, does he have two pair or not....and Q9 would have been the most likely candidate, so then i thought, maybe he's trying to bully me...so I decided to just call and not try to be a hero......on the river came an Ah, i did catch one of my 15 outters...


He checked, and I thought for a while about betting, and just checked behind him, he flipped over QJo and I took it down. I was pissed about missing my value bet, but the checkraise on the turn prevented me from value betting


Do you think I missed a value bet?

I don't see any reason to give this guy credit for two pair or better. I could definately see the big blind playing back at you here with JT (yes, they'd call a flop bet with JT) or two spades.


I'm convinced that tight players are being bluff bet/raised out of pots on the turn by weaker opponents who have picked up a draw.

i would agree with you if this were 20-40 or 15-30 dynasty, but we're talking about 7.50-15 here.


maybe the pink game plays bigger and tougher than the average 6-12 in LA, but if this were 6-12 at hollywood park hero would be up against two pair minimum almost always against the typical weak timid player meaning even his draws to an A or K are no good and he must make his flush.


so really we're looking at another geographical it depends. those come up an awful lot around here.

it's clear that he doesnt even have two pair so you can go ahead and bet your top pair top kicker then.


btw, some very weak lower limit players will check two baby pair on the river here, but a value bet is still called for here.

Would you have folded if he bet the river? I wonder if this is one of those cases where if he carries his bluff through he wins the pot. That is, he cannot win unless he bluffs the river.

Moreover, even if he has one pair, I don't think you can reraise him.


Alan

It has nothing to do with limits (or geography). I've posted three hands (two 20-40's and one 4-8) in the past few weeks dealing with the specific issue of opponents showing sudden strength when picking up additional outs. I've responded to about 7 or 8 other hands during the same timespan at different limits (and different geographical locations) in which this was a central issue.


I have little doubt that "knowlegeable" players are being semi-bluffed out of pots by weak players making bets/raises on the turn. Part of the problem may stem from the mantra "top pair/top kicker is no good when faced with a turn (check)raise".

Are you playing 4-8? I can never play that small.

once again we disagree. your black and white approach to hold em just doesnt do it for me lately. what you say about semibluffing players picking up draws on the turn is true to some extent but you find less and less tricky players at the lower limits ive played at. the vegas 4-8 ive played tends to be trickier than the weaker L.A. 6-12 games. i see this problem mikey presents as a grey area situation where it's very player and game and location dependent. your attempt to constantly approach problems with such certainty when there are unknown factors is useful in terms of getting replies to your posts, but is also hard to take seriously. in the case of this post i could only answer mikey's questions with a few qualifiers (if, then). you just come and say "this is how it is and im 100% certain" and that is a far from helpful tactic.


also twice you referred to players making turn semibluffs as "weak" players. i understand what you are saying (they are weak in that theyll make very loose preflop and flop calls), but there seems to be a contradiction in using the word "weak" to describe players who can and do sometimes outplay supposedly tighter, more aware players.

I played some a couple weekends ago late at night just to relax.

mike,


You are the one looking at the hand from a very limited perspective. You are putting Mikey's opponent on a very narrow range of hands (he's got at least two pair so you want to just call and then fold if you dont make your flush on the river) and not discussing all the options. You aren't even going to call a river bet if you make top pair/top kicker on the river in a medium-sized pot.


My comment was only that Mikey's opponent could have a wider range of hands than you suggested, specifically he could have picked up a draw to give him more outs than he already thought he had.


you just come and say "this is how it is and im 100% certain"


My initial response to your post had nothing even remotely close to that attitude. You sound like you are arguing just to argue.

Re-Raise, He probally has a single pair of queens, giving you two overcards, and obviously still your nut flush draw.

If you think he has a pair of queens, why do you want to put multiple bets in on the turn when you are drawing to a maximum of 15 outs? Mikey's opponent is a substantial favorite if he has any pair.


Note: it's only 12 outs if he has AQ or KQ.

Dynasty you are correct, even if he had just a pair of Queens or any pair for that matter....I'm still a dog, and have to hit my my remaining outs


-if for instance he decided to checkraise the flop then I would have reraised. But that's why I put this post up because it's the turn action.

this is an easy call. then if you dont improve on the river, fold. if he's typical.


if he's a tricky player...he may be putting a move...which to me only changes the river play as to whether to call if you miss and you think he's on a pure bluff. a reraise here is strong, but can be very costly and dangerous because....


if you reraise and he pops it back, your really going to hate it. of course this usually means at least set at this point if he 3 bets. i would figure im beat here at the moment, and need to improve. maybe figure 3 outs are gone, but not necesarily.


the more you know what kind of hands he'll play here preflop the easier it will be to narrow. maybe.


first id figure at least top pair, and since the turn wasnt an over, he blasted away to test. the problem is his kicker. but again, thats only 3 outs gone.


2 pair or a set? hmmm could be. but it doesnt matter unless an A or K hit the river or the board pairs with your draw hitting. which youll pay off anyway. i would, not knowing the player...and the fact it's HU.


Js Ts? doubtful. flush over flush isnt that common. possible, but id be suprised. depends on the player for this one. some players fear semibluffing on the turn because of the cost and only 1 card coming. they get timid. but some will. again...knowledge of the player helps here. if this player is capable, this hand is still on the bottom of the list for me.


some ideas...


b

mike l i have to respectfully disagree, i think this river is the perfect opportunity for an advanced opponent with 2 pair to check raise. The ace is very likely a card that the pre flop raiser likes, OR its also a card that would be a good one to check to induce a bluff from an opponent that was on a spade draw.


I too agree that a bet on the river is the correct choice unless i know my opponent to be tricky or prone to river check raises.


however ur statement that his check signifies that he definitely does not have 2 pair is a dangerous one.


think about it in reverse perspectives, if you were the turn raiser.

Some Ohio poker history.


The pink game in AC is what brought real hold'em to central Ohio in the early nineties. We used to play an odd structure, "bet or get," meaning there was no checking, and first-to-act rotated to the left on every street.


Then one of our favored players started playing the pink game at the TAJ, with two blinds and a stationary button, and he loved it. His infuence brought that structure home, first to one home game, then another, then another, until finally bet-and-get was gone. (I had already played a lot in Vegas and AC, including the pink game, but for some reason none of the game runners wanted to change the structure when I begged them to. It took a deep-pocketed live one to get it done.) After that, we played mostly $4-8 and $5-10 nightly for several years, with a weekly $7.50-$15 game. We didn't have pink chips, but we made do.


Tommy

"i think this river is the perfect opportunity for an advanced opponent with 2 pair to check raise."


you are very correct. i was doubting yesterday the likelihood of particularly advanced players playing that level that's why i figured a value bet here was in order.


"however ur statement that his check signifies that he definitely does not have 2 pair is a dangerous one"


i didnt mean to make it sound definite. barring any contrary info though (as you said) i think a river value bet is in order here. and i also think, unless against a particularly tricky aggressive opponent, you could easily for to a river checkraise with great certainty.

"It applies even at the 3-6/4-8 limits"


"It has nothing to do with limits (or geography)."


"I have little doubt that "knowlegeable" players are being semi-bluffed out of pots by weak players making bets/raises on the turn."


you have little doubt and you talk in absolutes. it's tiresome and unproductive.


youre correct that the turn checkraiser could have a wide variety of hands but i think that's only true IF he is tricky and prone to semibluffing. you didnt add any "if" to your statement and yet you asserted it's true and constant no matter the level or location. that's ridiculous. hold em is a game very made up of "it depends" and you continuously ignore that.


my contention is that i havent met many tricky semibluffing players playing below 15-30. they tend to play straight forward and only raise when they have a strong made hand. but i added that that was only true of where i play and that it may vary game to game and location wise. that you would try and argue with that is just nonsense.

"We used to play an odd structure, "bet or get," meaning there was no checking,"


this explains a lot.