Raising pre-flop in very loose games...

[yanfu]

Please pick apart my logic...

I tend not to raise in late position with a lot of callers in a very loose low stakes game. For instance, in a 2-6, 2-12 spread game w/ 1-2$ blinds where most players see the flop virtually every hand, and will likely call a raise with nothing, I would limp with reasonably strong hands, with a lot of callers: QQ, JJ, AJo AQo as opposed to betting for value.

Why? With a hand like QQ or JJ, I'd rather have a smaller pot after the flop, which would make it easier to push players out who have a small pair, inside straight, backdoor flush or even overcards.

With QQ or JJ and 7+ players viewing the flop it's likely that a flop will come that will either have an overcard, give someone two pair, give someone a flush or straight draw, have a pair that will make someone's trips, or many of the above situations that players may fold to a 6$ bet with only 14$ in the pot, but call 6$ to a pot with 60+$.

[Fnord]

By failing to raise your quality hands you're failing to punish players for playing worse hands.

However, in that game I might still limp JJ, but for very different reasons.

[yanfu]

Is the reason you would limp with JJ to hide the strength of your hand?

[xxxxx]

Why is it so important to chase out the players with weak draws? Have them pay to chase you. Have them pay 2 bets to see the flop and more bets if they want to see more. You'll win fewer but bigger pots. If you play with a $4 rake (plus tip) like I do this is even more important.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the reason you would limp with JJ to hide the strength of your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

My odds of winning against 6+ other hands unimproved are small. So if I expect multiple chasers reguardless of the size of the pot, then I don't see the point in overpaying for a flop where I'm looking for an OSD or set.

Like I said, I *might* limp with Jacks. It depends on game texture and my tolerence for swings.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you'll always want to raise your strong/big hands pf in loose games, not because of your huge edge and that it's just plain correct, but because there's a handful of posters on this site that will piss on your dog's grave site if you don't raise QQ preflop.

Really! I have no idea why raising preflop is correct! I just know that I don't want my car being vandalized at night with spray painted little fishes on the hood, so that's why I raise!

[yanfu]

I'd like to make 2 or 3 people pay for weak draws, but not 6 or 7.

A good situation (that doesn't improve your hand) with QQ is a flop like J 7 2 rainbow, it's likely there is an ace and or a king in the field. It's also likely one or two players paired the board.

Even in this situation there are many cards (A, K, J, 7, 2) that will likely beat you and only two that will improve your hand.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]

Even in this situation there are many cards (A, K, J, 7, 2) that will likely beat you and only two that will improve your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still getting the best of it, big time.

[xxxxx]

[ QUOTE ]


My odds of winning against 6+ other hands unimproved are small. So if I expect multiple chasers reguardless of the size of the pot, then I don't see the point in overpaying for a flop where I'm looking for an OSD or set.



[/ QUOTE ]

Your odds of flopping a set is like 8:1. With six players limping into the pot, you can raise for value with like pocket 2s and assume you need a set to win.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]

Your odds of flopping a set is like 8:1. With six players limping into the pot, you can raise for value with like pocket 2s and assume you need a set to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming a near perfect win rate when you flop your set. The argument that does hold up here for "the big set" is that by building a bigger pot you make players more inclined to call/raise with hands that are drawing dead or close to it. However, if the play is horrible enough this even loses merit. If the play at the table is truely dreadful, I don't have a problem trading off some +EV for lower variance in this spot.

[roundhouse]

I think you should be raising for a number of reasons.
1) You almost certainly have the best hand preflop (it's been limped to you), you have the best of it so make others pay for their mistake in staying with you.
2) You may knock out the player(s) behind you, there by buying the button. If you get an unfavourable flop you may be able to take a free card. If you do this, someone may be encouraged to bet into you on the turn with an inferior hand (which you might raise and knock out some of those drawing hands you're afraid of).
3) Occasionally you will hit a monster on the flop. When you do, the larger pot may encourage people to call your bets with inferior hands.
4) You will lose more often in a multiway field, but you will win more on those occasions you do. It's worth it.

RH

[MaxPower]

The problem is that your opponent have very large implied odds in this game because of the big bets on the turn and river. I think by letting them see the flop cheaply you are making a mistake.

The question is, where do these hands make their money - on the early betting rounds or on the later betting rounds. The answer is - early. So that is where you should get the money in.

[bdk3clash]

The implied odds offset the times your flopped set doesn't hold up. The degree to which it does is open to discussion, meaning I have no [censored] clue.

[bisonbison]

Really! I have no idea why raising preflop is correct! I just know that I don't want my car being vandalized at night with spray painted little fishes on the hood, so that's why I raise!

He's so scared he's raising everything. EVERYTHING!

[bisonbison]

However, in that game I might still limp JJ, but for very different reasons.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[TheHip41]

This is weak thinking. Just raise. You don't have to win every hand. Think about it, if 7 people limp to you, and you raise with QQ, you get 7 SB in there for the price of your one. Even if you only win 1 of seven hands, that raise pays for itself. I think you will win more than 1-7 times vs. 8 players with QQ in the long run. Raise away.

Derek

[Joe Tall]

With a hand like QQ or JJ, I'd rather have a smaller pot after the flop, which would make it easier to push players out who have a small pair, inside straight, backdoor flush

Why do you want to win a small pot? Do you not like money?

Raise QQ, JJ, you want the small pairs, backdoor draws and inside straight to call you on every street. You have to understand they are longshots and you are a favorite, get the money in, get the overlay.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
My odds of winning against 6+ other hands unimproved are small. So if I expect multiple chasers reguardless of the size of the pot, then I don't see the point in overpaying for a flop where I'm looking for an OSD or set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your odds of winning go down with each additional player seeing the flop but I doubt they go down faster than the additional overlay you're getting. As has been pointed out, you'll flop a set 1 in 7.5 times and you'll flop an overpair like half the time.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]

My odds of winning against 6+ other hands unimproved are small. So if I expect multiple chasers reguardless of the size of the pot, then I don't see the point in overpaying for a flop where I'm looking for an OSD or set.



[/ QUOTE ]

When you raise, you are not the one overpaying to see the flop, they are.

If you have 6 opponents, your hand is going to win way more than its fair share. The idea of giving up EV to control variance is silly. You can't spend variance.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]

The idea of giving up EV to control variance is silly. You can't spend variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Giving up EV to control variance is commonplace in tourney poker.

[bisonbison]

Giving up EV to control variance is commonplace in tourney poker.

Yeah, but you can't spend tourney chips either.

[sfer]

I'd rather move down in stakes than be incessantly worried about bankroll survival in limit cash games.

[Barry]

This is the classic symptom of the "I'm too afraid to lose to win" syndrome.

Remember, good players do not play many pots, that's makes it important to make the pots you do play, with an edge, to be of good size. No you won't win them all, but you will win them enough to make the raise worth while.