Should you EVER bluff on party?

[RPatterson]

Even semi-bluffing. They will never fold. There is no fold equity. And as far as disgusing your hand. It doesn't matter. You don't need to. So should you EVER bluff at the lower limits?

[stupidsucker]

Define bluff.

If you never bet your over cards HU or bet your good draws then you are missing out, and playing too weak.

However all out bluff attempts are bad at lower level SnGs. the lower you go the more slowplaying people do, and they just dont know when to fold.

Bluffing is something bad poker players love to do all the time. There is a place for it, but it normaly comes with outs(therefor a semibluff)

Your not going to get someone to lay down TPGK just because there is a str8 or flush draw on the board. For the most part play your cards, dont get fancy.

[Potowame]

three left or heads up , that is the only time I have found a good amount of success at it.

Its hard enough to get them to fold the second best hand, or any draw. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RPatterson]

[ QUOTE ]
Define bluff.

If you never bet your over cards HU or bet your good draws then you are missing out, and playing too weak.

However all out bluff attempts are bad at lower level SnGs. the lower you go the more slowplaying people do, and they just dont know when to fold.

Bluffing is something bad poker players love to do all the time. There is a place for it, but it normaly comes with outs(therefor a semibluff)

Your not going to get someone to lay down TPGK just because there is a str8 or flush draw on the board. For the most part play your cards, dont get fancy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should I bet overcards or draws? It's still not clear to me how I'm missing out.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Define bluff.

If you never bet your over cards HU or bet your good draws then you are missing out, and playing too weak.

However all out bluff attempts are bad at lower level SnGs. the lower you go the more slowplaying people do, and they just dont know when to fold.

Bluffing is something bad poker players love to do all the time. There is a place for it, but it normaly comes with outs(therefor a semibluff)

Your not going to get someone to lay down TPGK just because there is a str8 or flush draw on the board. For the most part play your cards, dont get fancy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should I bet overcards or draws? It's still not clear to me how I'm missing out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it may be the best hand, especially HU.

eastbay

[stupidsucker]

Try this...

When action comes to you think about a few key things.

What are your cards
What is the board
Who has the lead (who bet last)
How many people are in the hand
Think to yourself.. Do I have the best hand? Do I have a draw if I get called? Will my oponent call?

What it boils down to is "can I take this pot down now, and if I dont, do I have a chance to make a hand for showdown"


To say they never fold is wrong, people fold all the time even at the 5+1 level. Most of this just comes with time. There are times where I still screw up and/or disagree with what other players say. There are a lot of factors that go into when is a good time to bluff/semibluff.

[SmileyEH]

Bluffing is perfectly acceptable on Party low limits when you don't think anyone has anything.

eg. you are in the BB with two cards. two players limp and the SB folds. flop is 755r. you bet 3/4pot and they fold.

you just bluffed out some stupid loose party players.

-SmileyEH

[RPatterson]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluffing is perfectly acceptable on Party low limits when you don't think anyone has anything.

eg. you are in the BB with two cards. two players limp and the SB folds. flop is 755r. you bet 3/4pot and they fold.

you just bluffed out some stupid loose party players.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Or they call with A high all the way down and you dumped chips to idiots.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Or they call with A high all the way down and you dumped chips to idiots

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont bet all the way down. You should bluff with position. If you get called on the flop and the turn doesnt help you, you check it. If the river doesnt help you check that too. If they keep calling its your fault as much as it is theirs.

[RPatterson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or they call with A high all the way down and you dumped chips to idiots

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont bet all the way down. You should bluff with position. If you get called on the flop and the turn doesnt help you, you check it. If the river doesnt help you check that too. If they keep calling its your fault as much as it is theirs.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you should bluff the flop, they call with nothing, and then give up?

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
So you should bluff the flop, they call with nothing, and then give up?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

-SmileyEH

[RPatterson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you should bluff the flop, they call with nothing, and then give up?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a nice -EV move.

[SmileyEH]

yup, don't do it. ever. btw, I welcome you at a table I'm on anyday because when you bet I'll know you have the nuts.

-SmileyEH

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a nice -EV move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Continuous bluffing while someone calls you down with a slighty better hand is somehow + EV?

[Phill S]

if theyve called your bluff once, id be very unwilling to fire the second barrel.

save the chips. if they call with nothing, so what, you dont know when they call with something, so you assume they do.

they chips you can conserve are worth twice as much as those you can win. thats why you pick your spots very wisely.

"You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended"
The Art of War

Phill

[Jurollo]

Basically the fine line you need to learn is when to fire away and when not to. If the flop comes up rags and you fire a bullet and get a caller or two you may want to rethink your move, chances are, if you are in the right position it should get checked to you again and you can get a free card or try one more time to take it down. If you do it properly it is very +EV and can keep you a viable threat to big stacks even when you are running card dead in a tourney, basically you arent going to win tourneys with just that, but you won't win a ton without any of it.

[MaqEvil]

If I am going to bluff on Party, at the $50 level, I always fire atleast 2 and sometimes 3 barrels, there are a lot of players who will call a large flop bet and then lay it down on the turn to another large bet.

[TMFS9]

What i have found out at these lower levels is that when you raise preflop and have one to two callers. Then you miss the flop and also feel that the others have missed as well. When you bet a large sized bet and one or two of them call. Odds are is that they are on a draw and PP players are notorious for calling huge bets when on draws. So if you check the turn because they will call a bet here too (only if you have position on them) and if they check the river (if your sure they missed their draw) If you make a nice size bet they will fold unless they hit a pair on the river.

[TheDrone]

It sounds like you might just be steaming from a bad run. Maybe you should take some time off and give yourself a chance to recharge. Then with an unclouded mind, think about specific scenarios and game variables in which bluffing is most successful.

Here are some that IMO increase the chance of a successful bluff (I am lumping in blind steals as bluffs too):
(1) Later stages when blinds are a larger compared to stack size, and the biggest idiots have already busted.
(2) Against specific players that you have profiled as tight(not all players are loose after all).
(3) No more than 2 other players in the hand, heads up being preferred.
(4) You have an established tight image from early stages.
(5) There is little chance that the flop hit others, and it's checked to you.
(6) Position. Mostly LP, but a rag flop bluff in BB against an obvious preflop steal from the button can work too.
(7) Your stack is large enough to support a missed bluff.
(8) You have decided ahead of time how many chips you are willing to commit to a bluff, and you stick to that decision.
(9) Against medium to short stacks but not desperately short.

I'm sure that every item on this list can be debated, which is fine. But I'm also sure that you will eventually conclude that bluffing can and will be profitable if you choose your spots carefully.

[RollaJ]

Yes you have to bluff sometimes, but you have to do it sparingly, and you have to be able to pick spots. Much like anywhere else it works a lot better at NL.

[Profit]

I really don't have a problem with PP players calling big bets on draws, i prefer it.

Now to what i really wanted to post on, Death Valley, looking good!!! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[LinusKS]

[ QUOTE ]

Here are some that IMO increase the chance of a successful bluff (I am lumping in blind steals as bluffs too):
(1) Later stages when blinds are a larger compared to stack size, and the biggest idiots have already busted.
(2) Against specific players that you have profiled as tight(not all players are loose after all).
(3) No more than 2 other players in the hand, heads up being preferred.
(4) You have an established tight image from early stages.
(5) There is little chance that the flop hit others, and it's checked to you.
(6) Position. Mostly LP, but a rag flop bluff in BB against an obvious preflop steal from the button can work too.
(7) Your stack is large enough to support a missed bluff.
(8) You have decided ahead of time how many chips you are willing to commit to a bluff, and you stick to that decision.
(9) Against medium to short stacks but not desperately short.



[/ QUOTE ]

Good post.

Very very good advice.

I can't add much too it, except to emphasize you really shouldn't be bluffing early on, or against multiple opponents.

Also - something a lot of people seem to miss - it's rarely right to bluff the short stack.