30-60 hand

I might have the details not exactly correct, but it's something like this:


A limper, a raiser, I 3-bet on the button with pocket Kings. Both blinds fold, the limper calls the two additional bets, original raiser calls. 3 of us, $320 pot.


Flop is (I think) Tc-9c-7c. Both opponents check.

I do not have the Kc. Should I bet or check?


I bet. Both opponents call. $410 pot.


Turn is an offsuit J. Both oppponents check. Should I bet or check?


I bet. Both opponents call. $590 pot.


River is 8c, making board Tc-9c-7c-Js-8c. Limper bets, raiser folds, I fold, despite some irritating heckler yelling at me that he's bluffing.


(Almost) all comments appreciated.

Well there are some opponents, against whom you should almost always fold. There are some opponents, against whom you should almost always call. There are even some opponents, who would have check raised on the flop or river if they had a big flush draw, against them, you should raise.

However, you did not describe your opponent at all. All you said was that the other player folded and you were being heckled. So I’m wondering if, perhaps, maybe, there might be a chance, to some extent, on a subconscious level, that you folded, to not appear foolish. If that’s the case, you’re not getting any sympathy from me, sucker.

is there a 1 in 10 chance he's bluffing and that he called on the flop and turn with something like a T or 9 or J figuring you may be betting along with something like AcKh?


i think so. raise on the end here in case he'll fold a little club.


but it's very close. maybe im wrong.


and yeah i think you should bet the flop and turn. what else can you do?

Though your flop bet is kind of okay, checking was also a consideration.


Two opponents call you with a flop like that? Trouble's brewing. And then the J shows up like a thunderbolt from God on the turn? Hmmm. I would declare myself a conscientious objector right there and then. Call me whatever name you want.


Having gone to the river you should have told the heckler if he'd cover your river bet you'd split the pot with him if your hand won.


Once he shut up you could go back to congratulating yourself on an easy fold.

It's close but I would call on the river.

He could be bluffing the river, but with what?!? Specifically, most hands that people limp in and check/call all the way will be hit by SOMETHING come river time. Either he's got your hand beat or he's a true idiot. I don't like to fold on the river of many 3-handed pots, but I think this is a good time to do it.


Raising with the idea that somebody will fold a small club/str8 is ridiculous. Why would anyone bet out here and then fold if raised? If they were so unsure, they'd just check/call the river. About the only hand you'd have a chance of folding here is 2-pair - and most people would also just check-call with that.


In all, I like your fold here, Andy, but that's just my opinion, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

Tough river card. If it were a full moon or the high tide is before 4am I would call. Seriously over the course of a year I don't really think

it makes much of a difference how you play this

hand, just as long as you don't always fold.


Bruce

Andy,


You were there: if you felt you had enough information to fold with 11x in the pot, fine: you can play my money any time. In your description, though, there wasn't near enough info for me to consider folding.


Matt

I call too often on the end. Some 2-pair hands have a reason to make it the river and are unlikely to have a club, and may take a stab at the whole pot, or at least trying to fold the middle guy. I think that's a good fold.


The turn bet isn't automatic, as those that called the flop seem unlikely to fold the turn, and you don't know where you are, and if you have outs or not.


I'd bet the flop, hoping to take it down before things got confusin!

I agree with all your plays except folding at the river with a straight on the table. It is too easy for the bettor to be bluffing. I would call and expect to lose to a flush most of the time.


I believe your bet on fourth street is an illustration of the 2+2 concept which states that it is frequently correct to bet a hand with no outs and check a hand with outs. Since you have no outs to beat a flush, I like your turn bet.

"I agree with all your plays except folding at the river with a straight on the table. It is too easy for the bettor to be bluffing. I would call and expect to lose to a flush most of the time."


I typically call on the end too, but I think it's classic weak tight play, to become immovable on the river in order to offset how movable one can be early. All of calling, bluff-raising, and folding should be on the table.


"I believe your bet on fourth street is an illustration of the 2+2 concept which states that it is frequently correct to bet a hand with no outs and check a hand with outs. Since you have no outs to beat a flush, I like your turn bet."


I would tend to bet, too, but I'm again doubting myself. The problem is that if next to act made a flush, he may play it as he did, simultaneously, if middle guy doesn't have a flush but reads next to act's call as weak, he may be emboldened to check-raise with 2-pair or a pair and a big club. So you might bet a hand with no outs and be destined to call on the river, or alternatively bet a hand with outs and throw it away to a raise.

I misread the original post in my lack of coffee morning haze. I didn't realize that the str8 was on the board (I thought there was 4 to an open-ended str8). In this case, I think you have to call the bet and not like it. I agree with Jim Brier on this one.

I didn't notice the flush--that means either bet the river or raise on the river (hyperaggressive).

Andy I call the river. I like Gabe's analysis so I won't go there. I have folded a hand similar to this in the past. I'm sure I folded out of frustration and not because I believed that a fold was correct. A bet just smeels to fishy here but I bet Sklansky folds too.


Vince

You ask if there is a 1 in 10 chance he is bluffing. Unfortunately you are not getting 10-1 odds on your call, remember you are calling for a split pot at best so 5-1 is the price you are looking at which makes me lean towards folding here.


-ActionBob

"Sklanksy folds too."


I believe it was the great Izmet Fekali who once stated: "Making tough folds at the river is not the way to make money at limit hold'em". I think David would agree.

River bettor is basically an A-B-C player. The heckling comment was a joke; another 2+2 poster was sweating my hand and said "he's bluffing" as a joke after I folded.

River bettor showed the Jc for a straight flush and claimed his other card was a T. He would play J-T offsuit and would just check-call with two pair against this board, so I believe he might indeed have had J-To.


I didn't give sufficient information about this guy. He's basically an A-B-C player who was down a rack and whose pre-flop play gets looser as his chips dwindle, but not the type who would bet playing the board on the river, especially when a 4th club came.


A player I respect told me he wouldn't have bet the flop or the turn. My thinking was bet the flop to give them a chance to fold. I didn't figure either of them for an 8, especially when they both then checked the turn again, and my having two kings diminished the chance of them having K-Q.


A guy bets up front on the river into two players when a 4th club comes. No way, in my opinion, he's playing the board or will fold to a raise. If I had explained who this player was, I don't think the river fold would have been controversial. I was wondering more about the consensus on the flop and turn bets.


BTW, my comment about an irritating heckler was facetious. Another 2+2 poster made the joking comment "he's bluffing" after I folded.

"I think David would agree. "


Not our David. Why not ask him?


Vince

"A guy bets up front on the river into two players when a 4th club comes. No way, in my opinion, he's playing the board or will fold to a raise. "


Wrong.


"If I had explained who this player was, I don't think the river fold would have been controversial. "


Makes all the difference in the world.


"I was wondering more about the consensus on the flop and turn bets."


No brainers. Not even interesting. You played them correctly. So?


Vince

Andy: "A guy bets up front on the river into two players when a 4th club comes. No way, in my opinion, he's playing the board or will fold to a raise."


Vince: "Wrong."


-Andy should have said, "This guy bets up front on the river into two players when a 4th club comes. No way, in my opinion, he's playing the board or will fold to a raise."


Andy: "I was wondering more about the consensus on the flop and turn bets."


Vince: "No brainers. Not even interesting. You played them correctly. So?"


-So, like I said, a player I respect told me the opposite, I thought I'd see what the forum thought.

Andy,


Never truat a 2 + 2 poster to give you the straight scoop. Unless of course it's your favorite poster, me. Him, you can trust.


Vince

Well, there's your answer, Andy.


But wait, isn't Mike the 10-20 player who used to play 40-80?


Never mind.

hey i like my answers. all 4 of them.


besides i was just playing 10-20 waiting for a much bigger game. i was waiting for the 15-30.

But what's happened? Didn't you used play 30-60 and 40-80?

What happened was Mike was smart enough to move down when the time was right. He'll be back.

i really appreciate it! ill definitely be playing 30 again soon.


and one day ill walk over there with $4k in black chips to give to you. haha.

Even though I'm confining my play to my Las Vegas

weekends (one or two per month).


I like it up there better.

"Even though I'm confining my play to my Las Vegas weekends (one or two per month)."


take me with you.


"I like it up there better"


why?

If you think about this he just has an axiomatic bet here, because he has a clear call if you bet after him.


You can ignore the bet for making the decision therefore. Just ask if he's more than 80% to have a club when he calls on the turn round.


Seems pretty close to me. I don't think you need to worry too much whatever you do, here.